All this talk of gun grabbing makes me want to go grab another one or two...

pir8rn

Six Pointer
So I've honestly never been all that into ARs and the like, because I don't particularly have a *need* for one. My girlfriend is unsure that I "need" the two pistols, two shotguns, two hunting rifles, and crossbow that I have, but she is at least mostly supportive, so I'm happy. However, I am now seriously contemplating getting a semi-auto rifle of some sort because this latest push for more control seems to have more steam than any I remember. I hear the kids are planning another walkout, all the way to DC, and while I'm sure no highschool-er is orchestrating it, I'm a little worried that our government (NC and/or federal) may try to appease them somehow.

I'm not asking "Should I buy gun A or gun B?" because I will inevitably get responses supporting both choices. What I am looking for is some general advice, and personal experience that you guys have that I can learn from. If anyone knows of an exceptional deal, fee free to share it. And also, if you are selling in the under $600 range, let me know.

I mostly want something for home defense and a little plinking. Maybe a few varmit/predator hunts. Not especially worried about big game hunting because I have tools for that. That being said, I know some people use their ARs for hunting, and I know that they are perfectly acceptable when used appropriately.

I have been looking closely at pistol caliber carbines, as well as ARs.
I already have an abundance of 9mm ammo, which both of my pistols are chambered in. There is something to be said for cheap, highly available ammo (yeah, I know this typically describes .223/5.56 as well), but diversity is also important. I could opt for another chambering of a pistol caliber carbine (PCC) or stick to 9mm. These are cheaper than ARs, and most still allow for some sort of customization. I am most interested in the Kel-Tec sub2000 (though its not like they grow on trees) and the Hi-Point 955TS (though I know its as ugly as the girl my college roommate tried to set me up with, at least they are reliable).
I have also looked at entry level ARs. If I go this route, I think I want the true 5.56 chambering, not the hybrid marketing gimmicks. I hear the still function, but I'd prefer milspec, unless I hear a compelling argument otherwise. I have seen ones from DPMS and Anderson in my price range, and I'm sure there are others. I'd love to build one, but have no machining experience or tools. I have looked at buying a complete upper and complete lower separate, which I understand will work as long as they are both milspec, so that is an option as well. If one of you guys lives in Nash/Wilson and wants to walk me through the process of buying stripped and building one, I'm all ears.
I don't currently have access to a rifle range (other than my parents who are 4 hours away, outside Charlotte), and I know that some indoor ranges allow PCCs, which would let me get in more practice. I can't wait to finish grad school, pay off all the debt, and buy some land in the country...

I've done lots and lots of internet research, but that only goes so far. I wanted to know what you guys would consider if in my place. I don't know any of you personally and have only met a few of you l a couple of times for various transactions, but I trust the judgement you all have as sportsmen and supporters of our Constitution.
Feel free to PM me if you don't want a public post for any reason. Mods, if this is in the wrong section, please move it.

Edit - I don't really see the point in ARs in 22LR, so somebody can discuss that if they want...
 
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Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
Just me and judgment from past bans and the likes.....

Dont worry about the guns for say. Get the Reciever, that is the SN part and by current law the gun.
In the past bans several friends and myself picked up recievers. One of the guys I know picked up almost 100 recieves and after the ban built up some then sold the extras. Most just back to shops. These were 70 to 100 new and were selling for 400 to 600 easy at different places.

So not saying it to make money but you could swap one lower for several uppers later or just build them.up as money lets.

If I was looking to get into the MSR, my thoughts are anything can happen at any point.that jump the prices. They are cheap now, you can pick up lowers from 69 to 100 now at most places for 223,556,300BO
Others for the 308,7.62,6.5 run 200 to 300 for many lowers.

If they stop production, you have what you need, if they stop sales or transfer, you have some for you and the family.
Just my opinion but take the 400 to 600 budget and buy 2 556 lowers and a 308. Then start picking up parts to go with as money lets you.

Mags are also a big thing. My feel is they will bring back the 10 round ban..I hope not but that will be a compromise for a total ban of the mags or other bans is why I see them getting something.
 

TravisLH

Old Mossy Horns
In factory rifles I’ve had excellent accuracy and performance out of entry level DPMS and find em to be about the best bang for your buck. On calibers it’s really just what ever flavor of koolaid you want, 5.56 will without fail be the most available. Personally I’d go with something with a free floated barrel and without a fixed front sight gas block, just gives more options on configuration and greater accuracy. When you buy don’t get hung up on the trigger, it’s an easy trigger job and you can get close results to the $200 triggers with the basic milspec unit if you tweak it right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

AgingDisgracefully

Button Buck
They'll take more than just ARs if an AWB comes. I would consider some other stuff too.

The "buy receivers and build them later" strategy is technically risky since most AWBs usually have a part where they define "evil" parts/features that make a rifle an assault weapon (despite the face that, first, most, of these parts/features do nothing to make the weapon more lethal and, two, there is no such thing as an assault rifle). What guns are grandfathered will be grandfathered as they were on the day the AWB passed.
 

pinehunter

Eight Pointer
Getting a lower or two is a good idea. Here are some things I consider when getting or assembling a new ar.

1. Must have the forward assist and ejection port cover. I have seen slick slide M&Ps that don't have either. If you have to put me than a couple hundred rounds through the rifle in a hurry the forward assist may become necessary.

2. Barrel twist rate- this is assuming a 5.56 chambered rifle. The main options are 1\9 or 1\7. You can get a 1\8 or a 1\12 twist barrel as well but those are less common. In general the 1\7 will stabilize longer and heavier projectiles(this twist was originally for longer tracer rounds ) and will not be good for light varmint projectiles. 1\9 is what I have settled on and it has been good for me from 50 to 77 gr projectiles. YMMV

3. Mate of the upper to the lower is important. It is good to go with the same manufacturer for both to ensure a good tight fit.

4. Length of gas system- one of the main differences between the m4 and the M16 is the carbine vs. the rifle length gas system. Shorter gas tube are prone to earlier failure due to carbon build up and heat. (The ar is known to poop where it eats) I try to go with the longest gas system that makes sense without adding toi much weight and effecting the ergonomics. IMHO a midlength gas system is just about perfect for a 16 inch barreled 5.56 AR.

5. Whether you want optics or iron sights- if you want iron sight I would get a god old H bar upper with fixed sights. If not there are lots af railed no iron options out there. You will need a badger ordnance or BCM side charging handle typically to charge the weapon with a scope.


Have fun! ARs are like Legos for adults and a lot of the fun is putting one together and making it yours
 

AgingDisgracefully

Button Buck
Getting a lower or two is a good idea. Here are some things I consider when getting or assembling a new ar.

1. Must have the forward assist and ejection port cover. I have seen slick slide M&Ps that don't have either. If you have to put me than a couple hundred rounds through the rifle in a hurry the forward assist may become necessary.

2. Barrel twist rate- this is assuming a 5.56 chambered rifle. The main options are 1\9 or 1\7. You can get a 1\8 or a 1\12 twist barrel as well but those are less common. In general the 1\7 will stabilize longer and heavier projectiles(this twist was originally for longer tracer rounds ) and will not be good for light varmint projectiles. 1\9 is what I have settled on and it has been good for me from 50 to 77 gr projectiles. YMMV

3. Mate of the upper to the lower is important. It is good to go with the same manufacturer for both to ensure a good tight fit.

4. Length of gas system- one of the main differences between the m4 and the M16 is the carbine vs. the rifle length gas system. Shorter gas tube are prone to earlier failure due to carbon build up and heat. (The ar is known to poop where it eats) I try to go with the longest gas system that makes sense without adding toi much weight and effecting the ergonomics. IMHO a midlength gas system is just about perfect for a 16 inch barreled 5.56 AR.

5. Whether you want optics or iron sights- if you want iron sight I would get a god old H bar upper with fixed sights. If not there are lots af railed no iron options out there. You will need a badger ordnance or BCM side charging handle typically to charge the weapon with a scope.


Have fun! ARs are like Legos for adults and a lot of the fun is putting one together and making it yours

I can personally attest to 3. I have had a few cases where the fit was unbelievably tight with uppers and lowers from different manufacturers.

Midlength with 18 inch barrel is fine too. I would consider an 18 if you thought you were planning to reach out more than a couple hundred yards.
 

MtnMan

Ten Pointer
If your girlfriend is not sure you " need" guns, if and when she becomes " wife " then you can bet your butt you " ain't " gonna need em then. '
 

Southern

Ten Pointer
"My girlfriend is unsure that I "need" the two pistols, two shotguns, two hunting rifles, and crossbow that I have, but she is at least mostly supportive, so I'm happy"

Guns ain't what I would be worried about:D
 

Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
What guns are grandfathered will be grandfathered as they were on the day the AWB passed.

That is not how the past bans were. They listed the last day before the ban and SN for that batch is what we got at the gun shop.

So in those cases the guns could be built later.

Cant say how they will do this but just based on past bans.
 

AgingDisgracefully

Button Buck
That is not how the past bans were. They listed the last day before the ban and SN for that batch is what we got at the gun shop.

So in those cases the guns could be built later.

Cant say how they will do this but just based on past bans.

I agree with you that you can build a gun from the lower. But what you wouldn't be able to do is add "evil features" named in the ban after it goes into effect.

So suppose they say pistol grips are an evil feature. If you buy a stripped lower and then build an AR with a pistol grip from that lower after the legislation goes into effect, you would be breaking the law. So if you want "evil features" you have to build it before the ban. (All of this of course assumes that there will be grandfathering, but recent Democratic sponsored AWBs in the House and Senate have grandfathering.)

If you hold the stripped lower until after the legislation takes effect, then the resulting gun that you build from the lower has to be compliant per the legislation. Then you get these recent AR builds in California that are a cry for help.
 
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Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
We will need to wait and see.
For the last ban they went pre ban and post ban from SN.
If you had a pre ban you could build it how you want. That was why receivers were selling for so much and others not. Some changed the markings on the side to make it easy.

If the sn is on the reciever ie the gun and sold pre any ban then you would.be good to go if they stick to the same type bans.

All this is speculation, we xo not know what type if any ban would happen.
We have no clue to the wording it would in tail.

One thing for sure if the stop sales, transfer or the likes and you don't have on you will not be able o get one legally.

One would be hard pressed to think that if you get a reciever now and they ban them a few years from now you will not be able to use it.

ATF for the last ban defined the lower with a sn as the gun so you could do what you want with pre ban guns.

You could not do the same with a build your own, no sn or new sn receiver or a new made receiver after the ban.
 

Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
If you hold the stripped lower until after the legislation takes effect, then the resulting gun that you build from the lower has to be compliant per the legislation. Then you get these recent AR builds in California that are a cry for help.

That was not how the last ban went. We do not have a clue if or when and what new ban could happen.

Dont mix state laws with the federal laws. CA and NY, NJ have there own games and laws that do not apply to the rest of us.
 

AgingDisgracefully

Button Buck
I agree with you two that after the last ban the Feds didn't prosecute people for building with evil features after ban went into effect off of pre-ban lowers, but that was simply bc the ATF chose that interpretation. As the law was written, they could easily have decided this wasn't kosher and prosecuted if they wanted to. You have to make a distinction between the potential regulatory power legislation gives agencies like the ATF and the separate issue of how far they choose to push that. And there is nothing in the way of that interpretation with the bills now before the House and Senate.

That is what is so freaking scary about these bills and it is not just this issue either-the trouble with these proposed AWBs is that they give the ATF a ton of power to set regulations. Under the worst case scenario it would be very, very, very bad. (Honestly, under the best case scenario it would just be very bad.)

Now, what would happen under a new ban? You're right: that's speculative. But it could happen. And this time around home builds are a lot more popular, so there is more payoff from the Feds standpoint to doing this this time around.

We are actually about to have a big and scary experiment in how far they can push their regulatory writ (though, to their credit, I think they are being dragged unwillingly into this current situation) with the new bump stock rules. A bump stock simply isn't a machine gun and does not make a gun a machine gun under federal law-but now the ATF is being ordered essentially to extra-legally push the definition of machine gun. That's why I urge anyone-even if you don't have a bumpstock, think they are stupid, etc.-to make your voice heard when the next comment section comes around on this.
 
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ABolt

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Some great info in here guys. I fully admit to being pretty AR-ignorant. I have a Ruger mini-14 Ranch Rifle and a few 10-round mags, and felt I was covered. But now I have a couple questions:

1. Despite having a mini-14, should I also add an AR to the safe?
2. If I do add an AR, should I get one with a Wylde receiver so that I can handle both .223 and 5.56 ammo?

Again, forgive my ignorance. Thanks for the input...
 

AgingDisgracefully

Button Buck
Some great info in here guys. I fully admit to being pretty AR-ignorant. I have a Ruger mini-14 Ranch Rifle and a few 10-round mags, and felt I was covered. But now I have a couple questions:

1. Despite having a mini-14, should I also add an AR to the safe?
2. If I do add an AR, should I get one with a Wylde receiver so that I can handle both .223 and 5.56 ammo?

Again, forgive my ignorance. Thanks for the input...

For question 1 I would say add several ARs to the safe. Do it while you can. I would also personally recommend the FN SCAR and IWI Tavor.

For the chambering question, it is the barrel and barrel extension, not receiver, where those kinds of differences come into play. The Wylde chambering is popular bc supposedly it is more accurate (I can't personally comment on this since I have only taken one out once-it did well but it is hard to say better without a true comparison). Any 5.56 chamber should handle 223, but the reverse is not always true. The main reason is that 5.56 is a hotter round with generally higher chamber pressure.
 

AgingDisgracefully

Button Buck
Let me clarify what i just wrote a little so I don't get you in a spot down the line.

Any AR-15 receiver can accommodate any caliber that can be run through the mag well originally dimensioned with 223/5.56 rounds in mind. These include:
-7.62X39
-300 Blackout
-6.6 Grendel
-6.8 Remington
-458 SOCOM
etc etc.
So in those cases you choose the caliber you want by choosing the barrel and receiver and putting it on a standard AR15 receiver (lower and upper).

That said, if you wanted to go with something that can't be fed through the 5.56/223 dimensioned mag well, then you would need a receiver designed to accommodate this round. A good example is the 308 Winchester round which requires a specific (AR-10) upper and lower.
 

pir8rn

Six Pointer
This is great info guys. Thanks!. I don't know how to multi-quote, but I'll try to condense my replies to one thread.

1) FishHunt - That is a great meme. Love it.
2) MtnMan and Soutern - I'm not worried about her. I told her I needed to buy more before a ban, and while she doesn't totally understand my rationale (any woman who does is a rare breed), she supports my habit. We budget for all expenses and each ave some left over each month, which we spend however we each like. I happen to have more hobbies than her, so I spend most of my all the time. She's on the record in wanting a new cell phone and a KitchenAid standup mixer, and neither of those things are cheap... ;)

3) MrGadget/AgingDisgracefully - Looks like there's some confusion as to the exact specifics of past laws, and what will happen in the future is obviously just conjecture. My problem is that I can't be in any gray area, due to my profession. I am a nurse (with access to lots of good drugs), and am in grad school to be an NP (eventually with a DEA number for prescribing controlled substances such as narcotics). I have to be pretty much squeaky clean to apply/reapply for these licenses, so I can't really risk trying to circumvent technicalities related to the wording of any new/existing laws. Puts me in a tight spot to make sure I understand the laws.

4) TravisLH - Thanks for the input. I have heard good things about DPMS but never handled one in person. But when you say "tweak it right" for the trigger, is that something a guy like me with no gunsmithing tools or knowledge can accomplish? I can watch a youtube howto with the best of them and am a very fast learner, but I don't wnat to invest hundreds in something I could end up destroying because I "tweaked" it wrong.
5) pinehunter - Thanks for your advise. I think I def want 5.56 and optics. 1/9 twist sounds good for my uses. I will make sure to keep the upper and lowers paired with one maker. Anybody in particular you like? I've looked at stuff from Anderson (seems like a budget company with reasonable credibility), and the stuff by PSA (though everything is out of stock now).

Overall, I feel like I should go ahead and get 2-3 lowers and work on building them up as I have funds. Should I get a 'lower parts kit' for each, or are these components better off purchased separately? Also figure I should go ahead and get some 30-round mags while I'm at it because they seem like a target. Any particular brand you guys like? I'm only looking at the 5.56 chamber for the reasons mentioned in the last line of post #16...
 

Helium

Old Mossy Horns
Let’s just say I bought an AR an bumpstock weeks ago when this crap started
 
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AgingDisgracefully

Button Buck
Hard to answer the parts question.
Many lower parts kits include a trigger and pistol grip. But for the grip I run Magpul usually and for triggers Geissele all the way (these are usually on big sales come Memorial Day; I recommend the SSA as a general use trigger).

For some lower parts I buy individually. For instance, recently Strike Industries is doing cool things with take down pins.

Per the law, good idea on caution. The whole problem is that everything everyone has said on this thread is legally correct, and that is why gun control laws are so scary. There is a big part, one that has the force of law, to their implementation that is up to bureaucrats. But this is a hill we have been going down since Congress got lazy in the second half of the 19th century.
 

TravisLH

Old Mossy Horns
Op an AR trigger is one of the easiest to mess with, you have to really be inept to mess it up with any decent set of instructions. If you need just let me know and I can link you YouTube vids for the methods I’ve used on a bunch of em.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

pir8rn

Six Pointer
Op an AR trigger is one of the easiest to mess with, you have to really be inept to mess it up with any decent set of instructions. If you need just let me know and I can link you YouTube vids for the methods I’ve used on a bunch of em.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OK. Sounds good. Thanks.

Anybody else with input?
 

Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
Going back to the law.....

Don't think anyone could say what could happen.
But it look at it like this. If you buy a lower now, it will give you time.
It will not be looked at like one that was sold a day or week before the ban.
Bow could they prove it was or was not built before the ban, they can not prove it was not.
They can prove and you can that there was no ban in effective the day you did paper work and paind then transfered it.

That was why they could not go after people in the last ban. It was sold as a gun, there was no reciever block on the old 4473. The stores, manufacture, all can prove it was sold pre ban. Under that ATF could not do anything and did not. Only thing they did was to check built up guns at shops that were for sale. They could prove based on SN the lower or gun was built and sold after the ban. Companies like Eagle Arms , Armilite listed the last pre ban lowers they sold and there were not 5000 companies making lowers like there is today.

That said there are guns I have that I built up 20 years back for target or hunting. Some have no Bayo or threaded barrels... Legal for me to add at any point. From past and present laws or anything on the books I see. So why wohld they state changing and say if a 20 year old gun did not have a Bayo or Threads you can't add it? How would one be complying if you need a threaded barrel, comp or flash hider that will take a sound suppression device?

What makes the gun? They always went of SN in the past.
Just like the 86 MG ban. Companies like Ramos made thousands of 1919 side plates for MG.
Those side plates are still being sold and built as MG. ATF stated the recievers/SN part are the gun. That is why they are still out there as side plates or Plate guns as fhey are called.

But anything can go if there is another ban.

So Question, what makes the gun? What would you need to do?
Would you need to complete it with 100% all parts including threads, Flash hider, bayo, bayo lug, then carry to the range and shoot it?

When you add a barrel it defines what it is, pistol or rifle after adding stock.

Just an FYI.
To end all the what ifs.... If you are worried that your lower will not be legal if not built.....
I have extra barrel uppers and pistol grips along with CAR stocks......

Slap it on take a picture them remove and return to me........

Back in he last ban..... That still holds strong in NJ and other northern states....
Those states have SN lists, they did then. We would need to check and see with the State AG office to make sure the SN and type gun were legal for sale in those states to ship.
Sold from the dealer many Colts, they were on the list based on the ban as pre ban and legal in those states. They still check that and must be pre 92 or something like that. Always let the dealer deal with that and sold through the shop.

Anyways
Who knows what and if they will do anything this go around. .. And how it will be done.

But like I said... I will have parts for your picture gun if you are worried.
 

Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
26 USC 5845 a 7 Def Firearm
section
A: any weapon whitch will or designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile. .......
B: the frame or receiver of such weapon
 

Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
That describes any bow ... or straw (that could be used as a pea shooter).

In other sections it talks about propellant.
You can go to the ATF site for full info.

In short what they are saying is the reciever is the gun because it can be made to fire a projectile.
 
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AgingDisgracefully

Button Buck
Everything that has been said so far is correct, but what makes these AWBs such a strange beast is their appeal to "evil features" beyond the receiver. That is what creates the scope for them to make the date of enactment the last chance to make one that had evil features. They chose not to do this in 1994, probably in part bc the burden of proof (that you built a rifle with evil features thus qualifying as a "assault weapon" per the law after enactment) would be pretty tough. That problem hasn't gone away. But builds have gotten a lot more popular, and I would wager that there are a lot more unbuilt lowers lying around out there right now, increasing the incentive to go a different route than 1994. We'll see.

For now, we have only two real paths of recourse:
1. Vote. Vote. Vote. Vote. If the grabbers don't get power they can't grab.
2. Build some ARs.
 

AgingDisgracefully

Button Buck
In other sections it talks about propellant.
You can go to the ATF site for full info.

In short what they are saying is the reciever is the gun because it can be made to fire a projectile.

That is exactly their reasoning, but as firearms innovation continues the designation of the receiver is getting more and more arbitrary. For example, why is the upper of the SCAR the "gun" while it is the lower for ARs?
 

Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
That is exactly their reasoning, but as firearms innovation continues the designation of the receiver is getting more and more arbitrary. For example, why is the upper of the SCAR the "gun" while it is the lower for ARs?

Just the design and what they can SN then control.
Same for FALs and many other guns.

If you look at a lot if imported firearms they need to remark the SN.
Other countries they don't tinker on the guns as much.
Several.Guns they SN the barrels and place all info there. US imports required marking the reciever.
US went the way of calling the SN part the main part that require more work to develop and make. The upper was a replaceable wear part. there was rulings years back on it. Being the maker by design did the M16, AR15 to have the lower SN part and ATF went with it. Glad they did it that way.
 

Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
BTW look at Sig.
They did not make the lower or the upper [the gun]
The slides, frames and barrels can be changed.
The SN part and the gun is a block that has the FCG in it.

One could say... What was ATF thinking when they did that?
 
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