Clover question

nn76858

Button Buck
So I got permission from a landowner to plant a good stretch of powerline on one of my spots in Orange county. I have planted clover in the fall and normal oats and rye etc. On other spots....I plan on mowing and spraying the area in next couple weeks. I have never done a spring clover planting and was wondering in yalls opinion when optimum time frame to plant would be........and can it handle a frost after planting. I know soil is plenty moist right now and I jave more flexibility with work between now and turkey season. Also I generally ask someone at camp chemical for optimum seed blends but any recommendations are welcomed. Lastly would it be fairly easy to topseed with oats or rye in fall time? Thanks for your time.
 

lbksmom

Banned
Do not plant clover now/late also you need to lime 2 ton/ac. it takes 6 months to get ph up so fall will work best. You can in fall plant your oats 1st. then go over with clover for your blend. I would definately get your ground killed off, disc wait 3-4 weeks disc again, plant soybeans, peas this May 15th. and fertilize. This fall I would do at least 1/2 ac. clover/chichory together. Another 1/2ac. oats 1/2ac. of winter greens, turnip, kale,rape mix. If you have more ac. there just plant bigger than 1/2ac. ea DO NOT WASTE MONEY soil sample, do these steps you will do fine. Good luck.
 

jug

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I would just wait now. Wait till September. Lime in the summer and seed in the fall.
If you do seed now , you will have to continue to put out lime each month to keep the clover going.
I would get a soil test also. Does give you an idea of what you are dealing with..
I seeded clover in the fall of 2012 after I bought the farm up in Rockingham county. I put pellet lime out at the time of seeding and again in January. Got my soil test back in February and it needed more lime of course. Put pellet lime out in March, April, June, July, and August. Had to do so in order to keep the clover going. You don't have to get the ph right now but you will have to continue to put lime out till you get the ph close to what you need.
Easier to wait to Fall though.
 
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sky hawk

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Put pellet lime out in March, April, June, July, and August.

:confused: What was the reasoning behind putting it out monthly?


I would mow it this spring, and again in the late summer as most power lines will get woody growth growing rather quickly. You want to limit that. Also, I would lime heavily this spring as well. 1 ton/acre min., 2 ton/acre is probably best for most of NC. If you can get a big truck in there, having aglime delivered and spread is by far your best bet. If not, you need pelletized lime, a tractor and a spreader. I like to lime 4-6 months in advance of planting, as it takes several months for it to take full effect.

Spray early-mid August, plant fall plots early-mid September.
 

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
A soil test will be the thing that makes or breaks your clover plot. It took 8 tons on 2.5 acres to get the soil to a neutral ph in my yard when we had it done and even though it is hard clay I have to put our lime every few years to keep it neutral. You will need a test to determine ph and how much lime you will need, and then it's not a bad idea to do one every few years to make sure that the acidity isn't coming back up.
 

badlandbucks

Ten Pointer
Clover can absolutely handle frost after planting. Frost seeding clover is my favorite method. But the biggest problem you will have with what you are describing is seed to soil contact. If you are only mowing/spraying, a lot of the seed wont make it to the dirt. In that case I would either burn, or turn the ground before you plant. As far as lime, it is very likely you will need lots of it, as clover needs at least a 6.5 ph to do really well. But putting lime without a soil test first is throwing money away IMO. Another thing to consider is variety. White Dutch clover will do better in acidic soil than just about any other variety I have seen. If your soil is acidic, I would plant that, and keep adding lime until ph level is 6.5, and then overseed with another variety.
 

jug

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
:confused: What was the reasoning behind putting it out monthly?


I would mow it this spring, and again in the late summer as most power lines will get woody growth growing rather quickly. You want to limit that. Also, I would lime heavily this spring as well. 1 ton/acre min., 2 ton/acre is probably best for most of NC. If you can get a big truck in there, having aglime delivered and spread is by far your best bet. If not, you need pelletized lime, a tractor and a spreader. I like to lime 4-6 months in advance of planting, as it takes several months for it to take full effect.

Spray early-mid August, plant fall plots early-mid September.
Applying the dolomitic pellet lime monthly will keep the ph up temporarily for the clover. Believe it or not its works. My soil test said I needed almost 2 tons of lime per acre. My ph was 5.2 ... Could not get anyone to deliver or spread Ag lime because of the hilly terrain... Used an atv spreader and put out lime monthly till I got the ph up. Worked like a charm ;)
So I put out pellet lime once a month till I got ph up
 
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nn76858

Button Buck
Thanks for all the response. I am planning on discing the area. And the powerline is not wooded only broomstraw type grasses. So do many of you have experience with white dutch clover? I have heard good things about its toughness and attraction.
 
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Taproot

Guest
Match the clover type to your soil. I prefer Yuchi Arrowleaf Clover on our sandy soils in the Coastal Plains. Do you plan to establish a clover field and keep it in perennial clover? If so, get your soil tests done now. Chances are, you will need to lime at 1.5-2 tons/ac this summer to get pH into ideal range for clover. You will also need to spray the fields this summer and kill all competition. Then till in early Fall. Drag it smooth. Top sow with inoculated seed. Cultipack is best way to top dress seed bed. If you don't have a cultipacker, then lightly drag to cover the seed no more than ⅛". Or you can top sow immediately ahead of a rain and let the rain cover it. I don't prefer the top-sow only route because you lose some seed to birds and exposure.
 
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25contender

Twelve Pointer
Just finished mowing all the unwanteds out of our clover last weekend. Looking good. The deer are still mowing it down to the ground. The clover in the cage is about 3 inches tall and the rest is about 1/2 inch tall. It will start to jump soon.

20180310_113623-L.jpg
 
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badlandbucks

Ten Pointer
White dutch isn't my favorite clover, but it does do well in slightly acidic or sandy soil, unlike most clovers. So if that's your soil situation, it would be a good choice. As a side note, I am not a fan of using one variety in a clover plot. I prefer blends. That way if something changes (moisture, blight, etc) it will likely not ruin the entire plot. There will always be some variety that thrives in a certain situation.
 

bwfarms

Old Mossy Horns
Burn that field, glyphosate or fire, I can't stand broomstraw. I can pretty much tell you without a soil test that your ground's ph is acidic and the existence of phosphorous is nonexistent.

This is the mode of action, provided you have money. You can skip burning the field because whatever seeds that are in soil will come up. Scalp as much as you can with a mower and remove the residue. Lime 2-3 ton per acre. Disk the lime into the ground. Plant a spring variety of triticale. Fertilize after the tillers are 4-6 inches. I would recommend 10-25-25, it's currently $445 a ton in bulk. Dump 300 lbs per acre to achieve 30 lbs of nitrogen and 75 lbs of phosphorus and potassium per acre. Don't worry about yield or attraction as this is going to be your cover crop and your focus should be on improving the soil composition. Come July/August submit a soil sample and correct from there.

Don't worry deer love triticale and it makes great feed. I'm a grass farmer by the way and not the illegal kind.
 

bwfarms

Old Mossy Horns
I should add:

If Lime is incorporated into the soil with a disk, top dressing fertilizer is okay.

Lime and fertilizer should not be top dressed at the same time in no till applications. 6 months separation at a minimum.

Broadcast clover and grasses in February.

Clover is a legume and naturally puts nitrogen into the soil, heavy nitrogen applications on clover is pointless.

Understand NPK (Nitrogen, Phosphorous, Potassium) 19-19-19 means 19 pounds of the actual element per 100 pounds of fertilizer material.

Ignore people who say don't waste money on soil tests. They are not spending your money, you can end up throwing a lot of money away if you don't know your soil composition.
 

bwfarms

Old Mossy Horns
philosophy aside, you did contradict yourself.

Nope, I didn't contradict myself, you misinterpreted what I wrote. If I said don't waste money on soil samples and then told him not to listen to people that say don't waste money on soil sampling, then that would be contradictory.

I know the soil composition of the area and the OP said broomstraw. Broomstraw is a poverty grass that thrives in acidic soils that do not have proper phosphorous levels. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to guess what's wrong. I also didn't tell the OP not to soil sample.

I gave the OP sound agricultural advice to get the OP on their way to establish a strong food plot. He's either 6 months behind or 6 months ahead depending on how you look at it.
 

badlandbucks

Ten Pointer
Nope, I didn't contradict myself, you misinterpreted what I wrote. If I said don't waste money on soil samples and then told him not to listen to people that say don't waste money on soil sampling, then that would be contradictory.

I know the soil composition of the area and the OP said broomstraw. Broomstraw is a poverty grass that thrives in acidic soils that do not have proper phosphorous levels. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to guess what's wrong. I also didn't tell the OP not to soil sample.

I gave the OP sound agricultural advice to get the OP on their way to establish a strong food plot. He's either 6 months behind or 6 months ahead depending on how you look at it.
So you are saying other people shouldn't assume soil condition without a soil test, but you can? That's pretty presumptuous, and you definitely are underestimating the amount of knowledge that exists on this forum regarding soil and food plots. You absolutely did contradict yourself. You made the statement you can tell the soil composition without a soil test because you know the area. That's hogwash. Soil types and ph can vary drastically from one farm to the next, and even within different areas of the same farm. I've had farms that had blow sand, sandy loam, clay, and peat muck all within 1/4 mile, with PH varying from 5.0-7.7. You can't make a blanket statement like that and expect to be taken seriously. For the record, I also farm agriculturally (Soybeans, corn, alfalfa) in addition to planting many acres of food plots each year. There is no way I would ever fertilize or lime any of my ag fields based on what other farms in the area are like. That's money down the drain. If I take a soil sample in my front yard I guarantee it will be way more acidic than my field 100 yards away. Knowing the area is irrelevant. Knowing your individual piece of dirt is what counts. That's why soil samples are so important.
You are correct about broom sedge. It tends to spread the most in soil with low phosphorus levels. As far as that goes, you can almost bet that's the case nearly anywhere in the state. Broom Sedge is a weed, it will grow anywhere, even in good soil, it just spreads a whole lot quicker in poor soil because there is less competition. knowing the ph is only one piece of the soil puzzle. Soil composition, nutrient levels, organic matter levels, and knowing what plants to put in the dirt are all equally important.
Example: I had a farm for over 10 years that had a ph of 6.9. Great right? That dirt wouldn't grow a dang thing. Virtually zero organic matter (less than 4%) and was severely deficient in potassium. On top of that is was very sandy and held moisture about as well as a coffee filter. Which is why nutrients were leaching out of the soil. At first I tried adding tons (literally) of 0-0-60 which would help my plots that year, but the next spring levels were back down again. I finally started planting turnips in the fall, turning them under each spring and planting cereal grains as a cover crop until fall. After 5 years of that, organic matter was up to 8.5% and suddenly I could grow a halfway decent food plot. I never spent a penny on lime on that farm. PH was perfect but the soil was still junk.
A soil test is the best $12 you can spend on a plot
 

nn76858

Button Buck
Ended up planting this spring in March because of my time constraints working on a boat......thanks for all the advice I am pleased at how this looks.........hopefully the deer will take advantage
 

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ABBD

Ten Pointer
Contributor
I would see if you can talk with the transmittion line manager in that area too. They spray the easements occasionally. They shouldn’t spray the plot... but you never know. It been my experience that after notifications of plots on easements that they actually take care not to mess it up much. Including not mowing to low if I have not mowed it.
 

nn76858

Button Buck
I would see if you can talk with the transmittion line manager in that area too. They spray the easements occasionally. They shouldn’t spray the plot... but you never know. It been my experience that after notifications of plots on easements that they actually take care not to mess it up much. Including not mowing to low if I have not mowed it.

Any help on how to find out that information?
 

ABBD

Ten Pointer
Contributor
Find out who the utility provider is and start with calling the local branch. Where are you located? Did not see that in your profile.
 

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
no need to fertalize clover all that is needed is lime for PH.
We had a wood furnace in our hunting cabin and had plenty of hardwood ash. Our clover plots LOVED that ash broadcast on it right before hunting season and when it got really cold. The plots would change color overnight to a deep green and the deer loved it.
 

Soilman

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Folks, nearly ALL the soils in NC (except for a few scattered areas derived from mafic rock) are naturally acidic. Some plant species do indicate the pH state of soils. So, if you are speaking of an area such as a power line, that has NOT been in agricultural production, where lime would have ever been added, then it is pretty safe to assume it is in dire need of lime before planting most kinds of crops. Yes pH can and does vary, even naturally, throughout the state, but even those variances are nearly always on the low side. If you are speaking of soils that have been in agricultural production, then, yes, they can vary wildly from a very high pH to low, depending upon past treatment, and the soil texture. Sandy soils will leach out the lime quicker than those with more clay. A general recommendation is to lime sandy soils about every 2 years, and soils with more clay every 3 years.
 

nn76858

Button Buck
Folks, nearly ALL the soils in NC (except for a few scattered areas derived from mafic rock) are naturally acidic. Some plant species do indicate the pH state of soils. So, if you are speaking of an area such as a power line, that has NOT been in agricultural production, where lime would have ever been added, then it is pretty safe to assume it is in dire need of lime before planting most kinds of crops. Yes pH can and does vary, even naturally, throughout the state, but even those variances are nearly always on the low side. If you are speaking of soils that have been in agricultural production, then, yes, they can vary wildly from a very high pH to low, depending upon past treatment, and the soil texture. Sandy soils will leach out the lime quicker than those with more clay. A general recommendation is to lime sandy soils about every 2 years, and soils with more clay every 3 years.

Added 2 tons of lime per acre before planting will do.a.soil test again this spring and probably add more. Was wondering about fall fertilization of clover.
 
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