Fireants

bryguy

Old Mossy Horns
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sky hawk

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I know this is way off topic, but I always attributed the quail decline to habitat and efficient farming practices, taking out fence rows, etc.

This fall I was in an area that once had quail, and they have a TON of grassy cover, fence rows, weedy ditches, and hedge rows. There was an extensive amount of quality cover, and always has been due to the large number of dairy farms, and fences needed for them. There are zero quail. And also of note, zero rabbits right now (which they had a bunch of 15 years ago).
 

bryguy

Old Mossy Horns
I know this is way off topic, but I always attributed the quail decline to habitat and efficient farming practices, taking out fence rows, etc.

This fall I was in an area that once had quail, and they have a TON of grassy cover, fence rows, weedy ditches, and hedge rows. There was an extensive amount of quality cover, and always has been due to the large number of dairy farms, and fences needed for them. There are zero quail. And also of note, zero rabbits right now (which they had a bunch of 15 years ago).

increased use of pesticides and herbicides is more then likely the culprit there. The new herbicides kill everything but the most hardy invasive plants and the new insecticides kill so many bugs that there is little for chicks to eat. so while to us it may appear to be good habitat, it in reality probably is not is my uneducated opinion on it.
 

nchunter2

Eight Pointer
increased use of pesticides and herbicides is more then likely the culprit there. The new herbicides kill everything but the most hardy invasive plants and the new insecticides kill so many bugs that there is little for chicks to eat. so while to us it may appear to be good habitat, it in reality probably is not is my uneducated opinion on it.

I'd throw in the effects of hawks too!! Dang things are everywhere!!
 

Cootmeurer

Six Pointer
increased use of pesticides and herbicides is more then likely the culprit there. The new herbicides kill everything but the most hardy invasive plants and the new insecticides kill so many bugs that there is little for chicks to eat. so while to us it may appear to be good habitat, it in reality probably is not is my uneducated opinion on it.

Not sure I would agree. Modern insecticides and herbicides are much more specific and less likely to bioaccumulate.

I would put a lot of blame squarely on predators, whether those are fireants, hawks or raccoons. Back when I was a kid and birds (quail, pheasant) were much more plentiful - fur was worth trapping and predators took a big hit every year. Pictures of 10 coons on a deer feeder would have brought offers from a dozen trappers to come in and clean them out. Even skunks and possums had some fur value. Nowadays the birds get preyed on all winter, then egg predators hit them during nesting, chicks are always hammered by everything.

I just wonder how much of a bounce the population would take if people deliberately worked over the predators
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
Not sure I would agree. Modern insecticides and herbicides are much more specific and less likely to bioaccumulate.

I would put a lot of blame squarely on predators, whether those are fireants, hawks or raccoons. Back when I was a kid and birds (quail, pheasant) were much more plentiful - fur was worth trapping and predators took a big hit every year. Pictures of 10 coons on a deer feeder would have brought offers from a dozen trappers to come in and clean them out. Even skunks and possums had some fur value. Nowadays the birds get preyed on all winter, then egg predators hit them during nesting, chicks are always hammered by everything.

I just wonder how much of a bounce the population would take if people deliberately worked over the predators


I've discussed that very thing with biologists,,,,they tell me I'm nuts,,,,,,,

I epxect what we see now is the true "historic" quail population,,,,before man "adjusted" the ground and avian predators numbers in the early years of this country thru 1975,,,,,,,,,won't go back to the numbers of the 40s, 50s, 60s and early 70s again unless predators take a beating,,,,

just my ignorant 2 cents,,,,,,
 

wcjones

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Not sure I would agree. Modern insecticides and herbicides are much more specific and less likely to bioaccumulate.

I would put a lot of blame squarely on predators, whether those are fireants, hawks or raccoons. Back when I was a kid and birds (quail, pheasant) were much more plentiful - fur was worth trapping and predators took a big hit every year. Pictures of 10 coons on a deer feeder would have brought offers from a dozen trappers to come in and clean them out. Even skunks and possums had some fur value. Nowadays the birds get preyed on all winter, then egg predators hit them during nesting, chicks are always hammered by everything.

I just wonder how much of a bounce the population would take if people deliberately worked over the predators

All of this plus the widespread introduction of fescue.
 

Mack in N.C.

Old Mossy Horns
Fireants are way down the list on problems for quail . Where? who knows but there are not in the top 10.
Quail are down for a multitude of reasons. 1st is habitat. clean farming etc. 2nd is predators. back in the day when i quail hunted with some old guys they shot every hawk they saw and every land predator was trapped like crazy. There are predators everywhere now. I know everyone on this board who deer hunts sees gray foxes like crazy as I do, Hawks are everywhere. when i was a kid you did not see many Hawks or owls. 3rd. Fescue Grass . I could go on for days on Fescue but in a nutshell Fescue out competes native plants beneficial to Quail. there are other reasons but those are the biggest 3.

The problem now is if you do get your habitat "right" there are just too many predators. And think about it, If you do get your habitat "right" well your great habitat is going to attract more.......................................predators!
 
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Mack in N.C.

Old Mossy Horns
I've discussed that very thing with biologists,,,,they tell me I'm nuts,,,,,,,
,

They are wrong, the predators Fox, Hawks, owls skunks Possums etc hammer any quail. they just dont want to put the blame on a native animal.

Here is a little story of a NC Biologist. I was fishing Contentnea Crek one day and me and a Buddy of mine got back to the ramp and there was a Biologist doing a creel survey. well, we told told him about some big Flatheads and Blues we caught and he acted like he didnt believe us. maybe because we didn't have a single fish in the boat. My buddy proceeded to show him the fish on his digital camera. He proceeded to lecture us on how we should have kept them(which by the way I have no problem with people keeping any non native fish) but i told him we didnt want to keep them them so it was our decision to let them go. he lectured us some more. I cut him off and I asked who put the Blues and flatheads in the Cape fear and Neuse? He said the state did. I said then to not lecture me on whether i let fish go or not.

In a nut shell biologist are just like other professions. there are good and bad.
 
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Mack in N.C.

Old Mossy Horns
Where I live has had fireants for about 12 years. It seems like a lot less baby rabbits which has led to a decrease in adult rabbits even though I still have good year round cover. Plenty of opportunity to train m dogs but I always want a good population of game. What's your opinion of fireants impact on young wildlife?

could just be you are at the bottom of a bad cycle. rabbit populations go up and down usually on a 10 or 11 year cycle though some habitats have mild cycles.
 
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sky hawk

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Quail are down for a multitude of reasons. 1st is habitat.... clean farming etc. 2nd is predators.... 3rd. Fescue Grass .

I agree with that. Habitat is #1, but it has been shown now through multiple large scale efforts that even with highly managed habitat (including fescue control) over a wide area, with plenty of funding, quail are not recovering. That points to predators as having a significant role in the inability for populations to recover.

And I would argue the most significant predator by far is avian predators. When shooting preserves have leftovers, they are picked off by hawks within hours. There are a couple of efficient land predators, but they don't hold a candle in abundance or efficiency to hawks. I've seen hawks get quail before the hunters can get to them.

It seems as if recovery is an impossible task under the current state of things.
 

darkthirty

Old Mossy Horns
Not sure about the rabbits and quail with fire ants. Not doubting they don’t contribute to some loss but I was in a rabbit hunting club for several years in anson county right on the N.C./sc line. I have never in my life saw rabbits like that anywhere, and probably never will again. They were almost like a plague. Some of the finest rabbit running and memories were made on that place. We killed a lot of rabbits. I mean a lot. It was nothing to have a 8-10 man limit by lunch and just put the guns up and let the dogs run the rest of the afternoon. We did that for years and it seemed there was always more rabbits the next year. There were also 6-8 coveys of wild quail on the place. There were also fire ants dam near every step it seemed. That was really my first encounter with them because you didn’t see’em in northeastern Randolph county back then.
As far as the habitat goes, I’ve hunted a bunch of places pretty much identical and not see or jump but 2 or 3 rabbits all day. Between the dogs and hunters, we’d jump 100+ rabbits every time we hunted the other property.
 

nchunter2

Eight Pointer
Fireants are way down the list on problems for quail . Where? who knows but there are not in the top 10.
Quail are down for a multitude of reasons. 1st is habitat. clean farming etc. 2nd is predators. back in the day when i quail hunted with some old guys they shot every hawk they saw and every land predator was trapped like crazy. There are predators everywhere now. I know everyone on this board who deer hunts sees gray foxes like crazy as I do, Hawks are everywhere. when i was a kid you did not see many Hawks or owls. 3rd. Fescue Grass . I could go on for days on Fescue but in a nutshell Fescue out competes native plants beneficial to Quail. there are other reasons but those are the biggest 3.

The problem now is if you do get your habitat "right" there are just too many predators. And think about it, If you do get your habitat "right" well your great habitat is going to attract more.......................................predators!
Yep, you summed it up perfectly!
 

bryguy

Old Mossy Horns
Fireants are way down the list on problems for quail . Where? who knows but there are not in the top 10.
Quail are down for a multitude of reasons. 1st is habitat. clean farming etc. 2nd is predators. back in the day when i quail hunted with some old guys they shot every hawk they saw and every land predator was trapped like crazy. There are predators everywhere now. I know everyone on this board who deer hunts sees gray foxes like crazy as I do, Hawks are everywhere. when i was a kid you did not see many Hawks or owls. 3rd. Fescue Grass . I could go on for days on Fescue but in a nutshell Fescue out competes native plants beneficial to Quail. there are other reasons but those are the biggest 3.

The problem now is if you do get your habitat "right" there are just too many predators. And think about it, If you do get your habitat "right" well your great habitat is going to attract more.......................................predators!

Again, reference the articles I posted and they would say otherwise about fire ants that their impact.
 

bryguy

Old Mossy Horns
On our farm, we have a couple of coveys of quail, but I dont dare hunt them because they are so scarce. I do believe habitat is the #1 reason for the decline, I can remember the days of every ditch being a hedge row and there was transition between the field and the woods that had broom straw and other plants in it. As to the new herbicides and pesticides, there is more and more research that show that the new chemicals are just as bad, if not worse then the 'old' chemicals they replaced. I agree that we probably will never see the quail population like it used to be around here................and that sucks because there is nothing that will wake you up like jumping a covey of quail headed into a deer stand at dark thirty.
 

blackheel

Twelve Pointer
On the fire ants, I make a point to kick open every mound I see during cold weather. If you can reduce their ground insulation, you might successfully freeze the colony to death. I have a few places where I feel I was effective this deer season. Even if it only kills a mound or two, it is cheap and easy!
 

Cootmeurer

Six Pointer
Someone explain why a man can't walk by a fireant mound without disturbing it in one form or another?

You see, it's a primal urge caused by a brain enzyme that is encoded on the Y chromosome. It is the same stimulus/response to fire (you might even notice the similarity between fire and fireants). At a males earliest stages, they feel a need to poke or play with fire, and the same with fire ants.

Likewise, you never see females go out of their way to play with fire or poke/kick fire any mounds.

However, in this day and age, I am not sure what response a trans/CIS/non-gender has to fire ants - and probably don't want to know.
 

Mack in N.C.

Old Mossy Horns
Again, reference the articles I posted and they would say otherwise about fire ants that their impact.

Never said they didnt have an impact but they are way down the list. Even Your second ? article Brennan? (hadnt read it in a week or so so I am going off of memory) stated in study he couldnt say whether they have an impact or not. They do have an impact but it is way down on the list of their problems. Get rid of fescue , predators, and get you habitat right and quail would return but those 3 we may never see "right " again.

also the red imported fireant came from south america which has several species of quail whom do just fine with them so imho fireants are way down the list. I mean if you have a only a few quail on your land and fireants kill one brood then that is a big impact on THAT SMALL POPULATION but overall they are not the reason that quail are suffering. refer to the 3 things I posted.

dang my memory is good "Brennan (1991, 1993) suggested that fire ants have little effect on bobwhite
quail populations and were unlikely to cause their decline"

like I said they do have an impact but it is not the 1st,2nd,3rd,4th or even 5th reason for their decline.
 
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para4514

Eight Pointer
Contributor
I mean if you have a only a few quail on your land and (insert any of many impacts here) kill one brood then that is a big impact on THAT SMALL POPULATION but overall they are not the reason that quail are suffering.

I think this statement sums up much of the issue across the range. Todays land management and ownership trends push quail into small and isolated bits of suitable habitat. Once isolated it becomes like shooting fish in a barrel for predators, but it also means that one ill-timed mowing, a well intentioned herbicide application, a field reverting to a sweetgum forest or a clearcut closing canopy has a big impact. Adding to that we are in one of the fastest growing states in the US and impact becomes even more widespread.
 

Mack in N.C.

Old Mossy Horns
I think this statement sums up much of the issue across the range. Todays land management and ownership trends push quail into small and isolated bits of suitable habitat. Once isolated it becomes like shooting fish in a barrel for predators, but it also means that one ill-timed mowing, a well intentioned herbicide application, a field reverting to a sweetgum forest or a clearcut closing canopy has a big impact. Adding to that we are in one of the fastest growing states in the US and impact becomes even more widespread.

Yes....agree with all of the above. It is a shame . I remember as a kid for like my whole childhood that quail from the woods around our house would come into our yard all the time. In the spring the males would be on the edge doing the bobwhite call. Saw this for years. Rarely hear them now...anywhere
 
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Boojum

Ten Pointer
Research would say otherwise................
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9389/adc046de182a03badce03342b366c53edb68.pdf

another one:
http://scentsoc.org/Volumes/JAUE/v17/43.pdf



but the change in agriculture practices also does have an effect. 'clean' farming is not great for small game populations
I'm sure that fire ants impact quail, but if they were the main cause of decline, we would still have quail here where there are no (0) fire ants. They just disappeared. We even still have good habitat here-broomsedge fields, briar patches, fallow weed fields, but no quail. Two things I see that probably make a difference from back when there were lots of quail: Widespread use of chemicals and pesticides. Many more predators. Back when I was growing up, everybody had yard chickens, and they shot every hawk, owl, or fox they saw. Now, there are large numbers of all of the above everywhere, plus loads of coyotes.
 

Wildlifer

Old Mossy Horns
I'm sure that fire ants impact quail, but if they were the main cause of decline, we would still have quail here where there are no (0) fire ants. They just disappeared. We even still have good habitat here-broomsedge fields, briar patches, fallow weed fields, but no quail. Two things I see that probably make a difference from back when there were lots of quail: Widespread use of chemicals and pesticides. Many more predators. Back when I was growing up, everybody had yard chickens, and they shot every hawk, owl, or fox they saw. Now, there are large numbers of all of the above everywhere, plus loads of coyotes.

Habitat is more landscape based. I worked on a 3 year quail project looking at landscape factors. Small farms farms with the right habitat are great but they serve as habitat islands across the wider landscape. Unless there is large scale suitable connected habitat you cant expect to have quail on those islands. This factor alone is on of the major issues associated with the decline. Factors mentioned above do indeed play a part but not to the degree that the landscape change has.
 
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