Selling a ML?

Perch jerker

Button Buck
Is the same paperwork / licensed gun dealer regulations required for selling a muzzleloader as there is for a centerfire rifle?


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Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
No FFL is needed for a ML

Depends on the state and type.

Some states you must use FFL for a ML.

Also any ML that was made from a rifle receiver like some customs or any ML you can change the barrel to fire modern ammo like a TC Encore, H&R or others.

We need more info on what? When? And where?
 

Richard

Button Buck
Another difference would be whether the bolt has "locking lugs" on the nose? or none at all? Locking lugs indicate a center fire action and subject to FFL rules. NO lugs and it can be classified as a muzzle loader and can be readily shipped with no paperwork. Some UPS locations will give you a song and dance why they will not ship them? They are ignorant! The can be shipped and my local UPS store has shipped many of mine. The USPS give you no heat at all. Whenever I ship I ALWAYS state: "muzzle loader parts!"--------------A friend who has a FFL told me whether its a muzzle loader or a center fire, he ALWAYS indicates PARTS!
 

DarrinG

Six Pointer
My understanding is like what Mr. Gadget says. If the barrel can be swapped out to use a modern ammo, then yes. If not, no. I prefer traditional muzzleloaders and they do not require FFL to ship, sell, swap (not in NC anyhow).
 

Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
My understanding is like what Mr. Gadget says. If the barrel can be swapped out to use a modern ammo, then yes. If not, no. I prefer traditional muzzleloaders and they do not require FFL to ship, sell, swap (not in NC anyhow).

Or to add if the ML started as a gun, under atf rules it is still a gun.
Even if you change it into a ML or anything like a lamp that has the reciever with sn it is still a gun.

For a gun to not be a gun anymore it must be destroyed per ATF rules.
Last I recall it is flame cut in 3 sections.
 

pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Is ffl paperwork required with any gun?

Ive done license, and bill of sale. Or ccw/permit and bill of sale for pistols.

I didnt know you had to do anything for long guns
 

Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
This has got a little off track but the start of it had to do with shipping selling more from the standpoint of out of state.

Local you need to just know or understand there is nothing to stop them from owning them.
Make sure they are of age for.BP that is made or could be made into a gun.

As of now FFL is only required for a gun out of state or shipping them.
 
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Richard

Button Buck
A muzzle loader---assuming a inline bolt action is manufactured with NO locking lugs (i.e. a Rem. 700ML)..........therefor cannot be converted to center fire cartridges and can be shipped as an "antique" with no FFL. Once the bolt has locking lugs (i.e. Rem 700) it is a center fire action. These are being readily converted to smokeless muzzle loading however, due to the fact there are locking lugs, a muzzle loader configured on this action will require a FFL.
 

Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
Again
Locking lugs have nothing to do with it. They can be a factor in a design but they are not listed on anything that ATF has done as a general rule or law pertaining to a firearm or not.
It may be part of remingtons case with the design but not a ruleing or law.
It has to do with how it started out and if it can be readily convertible to fire something that is considered a contained cartridge.

I have shot many weapons that have locking lugs for say but are not a firearm.
Few have been cannons.

If you feel that locking lugs make it a gun, please show someplace listed as a rule or law stated that having locking lugs make it a modern firearm.
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Gadget is correct, but if you want to know and have a name to put with it call this # 336 235 4950. It is the regional BATF office that the agents that handle licensing and inspections work out of for this area. You can speak to someone and they can clear up any questions and are the folks you will have to appease in the long run.
 

Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
Guys also with the new laws on firearms and even blackpowder you best know the laws where you ship it.
There are so many new ons along with restrictions on even civil war black powder stuff alone with normal black powder guns you risk problems anytime you ship to the northeast. They are now making you do a 4473 and also wait time to pick up old blackpowder guns.
 

Richard

Button Buck
There is a person who I know from an internet forum and subsequently met in person at a smoke less muzzle loader shoot up in Kentucky who is making muzzle loaders actions in his shop in Ohio. He has no FFL (which he looked into) and these actions have no locking lugs specifically for that reason. He sells and ships these actions out of state. They are designed for using a 209 breech plug system.
 

Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
There is a person who I know from an internet forum and subsequently met in person at a smoke less muzzle loader shoot up in Kentucky who is making muzzle loaders actions in his shop in Ohio. He has no FFL (which he looked into) and these actions have no locking lugs specifically for that reason. He sells and ships these actions out of state. They are designed for using a 209 breech plug system.


Sure I would believe that. Nothing sounds wrong or out of the norm.
Being he is making guns/blackpowder weapons he would.still.need to deal with ITAR regs. He may also need to deal with FAET.
This also doesn't or say anything about locking lugs. There is still no info you have provided that pertain to law or ATF regulations on locking lugs.
More than likely just coincidence his design has no locking lugs. He would still need to have bussiness permits and federal tax ID info maybe even State tax number.

If not he is flying under the radar so far. May be so with ATF also..
If he builds a gun or works on a gun with a sn and controlled by ATF then he need an FFL. As in you sending a rem 700 for Rebuild or any other firearm.
 
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outdoorNC

Spike
See attached Question and Answer #2 starting on page 2 of the attached document from the ATF resource center.
 

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