deer hunters - it's time to be heard

Which of the following proposed changes to the hunting regulations do you support?

  • No changes - Things are fine the way they are.

    Votes: 31 16.2%
  • Shorten gun/ML seasons.

    Votes: 67 35.1%
  • 2 buck limit

    Votes: 117 61.3%
  • 4 antlerless limit

    Votes: 41 21.5%
  • 3 buck limit

    Votes: 18 9.4%
  • 3 antlerless limit

    Votes: 35 18.3%
  • Delay or change opener for gun/ML seasons.

    Votes: 57 29.8%
  • APRs. 8 pts or better plus 21" inside spread. 1 buck per year like they do it up north.

    Votes: 15 7.9%

  • Total voters
    191

Wildlifer

Old Mossy Horns
The statement did come off as saying guys would tag small bucks as a button. Big difference between small buck and button buck.

Personally I'm in favor of the changes even tho they really don't change much for me. 2 ways to change the buck doe ratio, shoot more does or shoot less bucks. Most people want to see more deer regardless of what the biology indicates so taking more does is out. I think there is plenty of room for more changes but for now small steps.

There were a few comments about getting the most out of your lease ect... Look at Ohio or Illinois, people flock there and they somehow still produce older deer. notice I said older deer not big deer. Different habitat and to some extent deer so yes they will pretty much always have generally bigger deer there than here.
Limits and season start and end dates have a lot to do with it. There is a reason to the weapons allowed during the rut and the timing of the seasons.
 

Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
The statement did come off as saying guys would tag small bucks as a button. Big difference between small buck and button buck.
.

I can see people reading stuff into it.
But I never used the words small bucks.

That said bucks equal balls not horns.
My point is now there will be 2 tags for horns and 4 for slick heads.
What Im betting is people will not look as hard to see if it is a button or doe.
No horns equals using one of the 4 tags. That said my feel is there will be more bucks killed as buttons, than normal.
 

aaronmdln1

Six Pointer
I haven't watched a hunt on tv in the past 14 years. I have no illusions of grandeur. I don't think, that within 3 years, every buck taken in NC will be worthy of internet :donk:donk:donk:donk stroking. What I do have, is the belief that if we show a little collective restraint, we will be able to kill a consistent amount of healthy deer. By we I mean every hunter. I'm not part of the everyone deserves a trophy crowd. Predation is growing, so is pavement, number of drivers and numbers of transients. Development is happening at a rapid rate in NC. Habitat is shrinking. If we aren't proactive in this, we'll be forced to be reactive.
Man this post hit the nail square on the head. It is up to US as hunters to conserve what we have to enjoy. Im no TV hunt worshiper but would love to know others had the same restraints as far as shooting lower age class deer. With the loss of habitat and the number of hunters getting pushed into smaller areas,it now seems like the attitude is kill mine before someone else does. I put around 4 to 6 deer a year in the freezer and thats with 2 kids hunting and tagging aswell. Since they have started hunting I have cut way back on what I kill. Just to reserve and let the herd in my areas increase and age. Im sure others reap the benefit and so one day may I. Just my 2cents..

Sent from my VS986 using Tapatalk
 

shotgunner

Ten Pointer
Let me start by saying I have not shot a buck in 3 years. Seen plenty of small ones but have chosen not to shoot them. That is MY choice, should not be the governments. Our state should manage for healthy numbers. Most folks I talk to say number are down. If individuals or clubs choose to trophy manage fine, but not dictated by state. Everyone wants to hunt like the guys on TV. What a joke. Those guys love to shoot more than me. Not one of them only shooting 2 bucks. They just travel to 4 or 5 states. If so many hunters in this state really wanted trophies their would be no need to change the regs. I asked a legit questions: Eastern region does a better job of letting 1.5 year old bucks go than any other region, per Wildlife commission data, Then why change Eastern Regs? Give me facts not "wants" and opinions.
 

Firedog

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
56% of Hunters believe buck management on private land should be left up to those that hunt that land. The NCWRC stated that the deer herd is in good condition, as long as this is the case, no hunters preference should out weigh the others.

Changing the buck limit will not make or break the deer herd. Managing your doe population will.

https://www.qdma.com/reality-doebuck-ratios/

I disagree with the premise. Hunter Preference is based on a micro view in many cases only look at the here and now.. policy must look at a Macro view and take into account the future. We have seen the results of policy that does not do that.. how many covey of Quail do you kick up deer hunting right now.. when my dad was growing up I am sure they would have said there are plenty of quail no need to change a thing.. I wish they had looked to the future a little more.. would love to have a truly huntable population around today.
 

Greg

Old Mossy Horns
It's been said many times .... hunters only know what they see in their own little worlds. Wildlife Management needs the 'big picture'.

As for letting the young ones go ... I've been doing it for years. But it only works if 'enough' folks right around you do the same. It doesn't take many to make many others' efforts be in vain.
 
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I can see people reading stuff into it.
But I never used the words small bucks.

That said bucks equal balls not horns.
My point is now there will be 2 tags for horns and 4 for slick heads.
What Im betting is people will not look as hard to see if it is a button or doe.
No horns equals using one of the 4 tags. That said my feel is there will be more bucks killed as buttons, than normal.

I fail to see how more button bucks will be killed, tagging a button as a doe has been the policy forever. That is not a new concept.
 

Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
I fail to see how more button bucks will be killed, tagging a button as a doe has been the policy forever. That is not a new concept.

Correct, but when you call it in it ask for button or doe.
Less horn deer tags could equal more buttons killed.
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
I can see people reading stuff into it.
But I never used the words small bucks.

That said bucks equal balls not horns.
My point is now there will be 2 tags for horns and 4 for slick heads.
What Im betting is people will not look as hard to see if it is a button or doe.
No horns equals using one of the 4 tags. That said my feel is there will be more bucks killed as buttons, than normal.

no worries gadget. i did think i understood you. I am glad i did not.
 

Trappertod

Six Pointer
I remember in the 80's it was 3 bucks and 2 does, I have never filled all my tags, but just take one buck and doe from each hunter. We stopped shooting does for several years now and our deer sightings are up. When the population on our lease increases again I am sure we will start back taking some out.
 

Wildlifer

Old Mossy Horns
Because there will be an increase in pressure on antlerless deer in order to fill tags? They will always be mistaken for does, I don't see a reasonable link as to why that rate would increase.
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
56% of Hunters believe buck management on private land should be left up to those that hunt that land. The NCWRC stated that the deer herd is in good condition, as long as this is the case, no hunters preference should out weigh the others.

Changing the buck limit will not make or break the deer herd. Managing your doe population will.

https://www.qdma.com/reality-doebuck-ratios/

well if no hunter preference should outweigh the others then i guess you are good on the NCWRC setting the regs without hunter input.

or do you just want the current regs in tact because that is your preference? :)

i admire your tenacity DRS but cannot for the life of me cannot understand your argument.
 
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DRS

Old Mossy Horns
You need to go back and read it again DRS... it says the deer herd is biologically good ,BUT COULD BE BETTER WITH THE BUCK LIMIT AND SEASON ADJUSTMENTS.... dang man you are like the liberal media.... only use the part of the facts that suits your agenda....

Have you emailed the biologist yet?
About some issues yes? No, reply. The biologist had a chance to explain the issue when I ask the first time, they choose to deny the data.

Actually this is what I have posted earlier, nothing about buck limits to better manage the herd.
Fiscal Note for Proposed Changes to
Bear and Deer
Rules

Biologically, the deer herd is in good condition, but could be improved by reducing young buck harvest, shifting the timing of harvest later in the year, and adjusting doe harvest rates.
 

shotgunner

Ten Pointer
I think I understand what DRS is saying. Not trying to put words in his mouth but if the herd is in good shape, the buck distribution is the best in the state, then why are they making changes? Why not cut the other regions to 1 buck per season until they catch up with the east in age distribution of bucks harvested. Seems we are managing by size and not age. According to the NC wildlife commission the average 3.5 year old is 13 inch 7 point in the east. Which means about half are 6 points and half 8 points. Other 3 regions same age class 15 inches and 8 points. Bigger deer is not the same as age class. Remember a trophy is a mature deer (age) not horn size. So are we going to manage by size or age structure. Let them live as long as they want and obvious the majority of eastern deer will never be as big as their cousins farther west. We are making the management units smaller for seasons but trying to manage the entire state as one unit on limits. Little confusing as well. Seems not a whole lot of biology being used.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
It's been said many times .... hunters only know what they see in their own little worlds. Wildlife Management needs the 'big picture'.

As for letting the young ones go ... I've been doing it for years. But it only works if 'enough' folks right around you do the same. It doesn't take many to make many others' efforts be in vain.

I agree, but all I see here is people in their own little world. The data shows the deer herd eastern season is as about as good as it gets, so why change because people want more mature bucks. If you want to manage for such have at it. You may need to control enough land to do so, but that is also an option you have.

To breed more does during the first estrus cycle? Well, if the median conception date is Nov.8 that is already happening. If they were more does breed/days in subsequent estrus cycles that date would at the least be skewed toward December.

If you want more older bucks, why do you want to delay the 1.5 year buck harvest to later in the year. I thought the idea was to let them live.
 
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oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
I agree, but all I see here is people in their own little world. The data shows the deer herd eastern season is as about as good as it gets, so why change because people want more mature bucks. If you want to manage for such have at it. You may need to control enough land to do so, but that is also an option you have.

To breed more does during the first estrus cycle? Well, if the median conception date is Nov.8 that is already happening. If they were more does breed/days in subsequent estrus cycles that date would at the least be skewed toward December.

If you want more older bucks, why do you want to delay the 1.5 year buck harvest to later in the year. I thought the idea was to let them live.

you make the assumption they will get killed. that is not a given..
 

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Lots to read in there, wow.
I only concentrated on things that would affect my area or my season and ended up commenting and voting on numerous proposals.
It actually was refreshing to see that game and fish are trending toward my ways of thinking a bit.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
well if no hunter preference should outweigh the others then i guess you are good on the NCWRC setting the regs without hunter input.

or do you just want the current regs in tact because that is your preference? :)

i admire your tenacity DRS but cannot for the life of me cannot understand your argument.

I have attended the deer study forum, the management forums, read through the data and looked back through and have noticed inconsistency in how the data is used and manipulated, that along with Dr. Shaw having a knee jerk reaction and deny data, after he agreed that the eastern season had the better age structure. It's not just one thing. That makes me question, why? The "why" really concerns me. Politics? Big Money? Is it a necessity or state mandated trophy management? IMO, from what I have seen it leans toward state mandated trophy management. That in my mind is not what the NCWRC should be conducting, whether I would like to see older bucks or not. By the way, I actually do lease land, so I can be more selective.
 
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DRS

Old Mossy Horns
you make the assumption they will get killed. that is not a given..

Your correct, but by extending the seasons in some zones will surely increase the yearling buck kill, that have much worse age structure than eastern NC? Shifting timing of harvest, does infer harvesting the same deer later. Is that really going to help in those areas? Why is eastern NC being held to a different standard? That is just not form the age structure either. I don't know if I can find that data, but the NCWRC looked at 6 criteria they would like to meet, with these changes ENC would likely meet 6 out of 6. Other zones would at best meet 5 out of the 6, with some only meeting 4 out of the 6. This was discussed at the NCWRC Deer Management forum I attended.
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
Your correct, but by extending the seasons in some zones will surely increase the yearling buck kill, that have much worse age structure than eastern NC? Shifting timing of harvest, does infer harvesting the same deer later. Is that really going to help in those areas? Why is eastern NC being held to a different standard? That is just not form the age structure either. I don't know if I can find that data, but the NCWRC looked at 6 criteria they would like to meet, with these changes ENC would likely meet 6 out of 6. Other zones would at best meet 5 out of the 6, with some only meeting 4 out of the 6. This was discussed at the NCWRC Deer Management forum I attended.

i think you answered your own question. they can make changes to satisfy their goals in the east.

the fact that they cant get their goals in the other sections shouldnt keep them from being successful in the east.

instead of looking at it like they are slighting the east you could say the east is getting the most benefit potentially.
 

FishHunt

Old Mossy Horns
i think you answered your own question. they can make changes to satisfy their goals in the east.

the fact that they cant get their goals in the other sections shouldnt keep them from being successful in the east.

instead of looking at it like they are slighting the east you could say the east is getting the most benefit potentially.

Only if one views the proposedt changes as a benefit, LOL :D

<>< Fish
 

shotgunner

Ten Pointer
Can we find out what the people that actually hunt in the east think. It appears that the folks hunting from the other regions want the east to have to hunt by same regs as them even thought they are already doing a better job of managing their age structure.
 

nchunt101

Ten Pointer
Can we find out what the people that actually hunt in the east think. It appears that the folks hunting from the other regions want the east to have to hunt by same regs as them even thought they are already doing a better job of managing their age structure.

I am all for the shoter season. I don't really see the point in the two buck limit---if anything I wish they would reduce doe tags to two. That said I have a feeling the number of unreported kills will sky rocket.
 

Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
This all makes you wonder.
Growing up,.being on a farm and always being around animals but is not a big farm but had them all around.

If you were to look at it like livestock. In a way thats what they are...

Never needed many bulls or rosters.. Need a few for breeding but thats it.
You saved the young critters and the critters that are making you little critters.
You always killer off the ones not needed for anything other than meat.

When we look at the deer, NC WRC wants to kill off all the young ones, kill off all the does making fawns, yet limit the older ones or anything with horns thst you really dont need many of to get the job done.

They are not changing the rules to make more deer.
They are not changing the rules to make them healthy.
They are changing the rules to make bigger bucks.

What will be the cost? After a few years of people killing yearling button bucks, fawn and does it could out a hurt on the deer herd.

Why not make small changes? Limit to 3 bucks?
Why not make it 3 and 3? 3 bucks or button bucks, 3 does? See what happens after a few years.

All I know is the east. Not been keeping up with anything other than the east. That is what I speak of.

There was a number for the average life of a Doe can't remember and how many deer you will kill on average by killing that deer.
When you kill a buck, as long as there are others to breed then you only kill one deer vs 8 deer or more based on the one doe kill. I think I remember the WRC telling me 4 year average for breeding does and they have average 1.x a year so 7 to 8 deer total from one doe not counting any of the does fawns that make it and may breed.

So it is clear they want to grow horns and have less deer.
hope we still have deer around in 10 to 20 years.
 
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shotgunner

Ten Pointer
Great idea Mr. Gadget. Make button bucks count as one of your bucks. That should be state wide. I can not think of a single thing that would help the herd more. Then folks would be a little more careful about what they shoot. Just a thought.
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
"they want to grow horns and have less deer "would satisfy a lot of lobbyists and hunters. That would be a win win for the ncwrc.

but i dont think you are interpreting their plan correctly.

how do you figure "they want to kill all the young ones?" What in their plan leads you to make that statement.

your analogy is good on the cows versus deer. didnt you want a prize bull hanging out? an old one that was truly a fine specimen? one that folks would pay for?
 

ScottyB

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I think I understand what DRS is saying. Not trying to put words in his mouth but if the herd is in good shape, the buck distribution is the best in the state, then why are they making changes? Why not cut the other regions to 1 buck per season until they catch up with the east in age distribution of bucks harvested. Seems we are managing by size and not age. According to the NC wildlife commission the average 3.5 year old is 13 inch 7 point in the east. Which means about half are 6 points and half 8 points. Other 3 regions same age class 15 inches and 8 points. Bigger deer is not the same as age class. Remember a trophy is a mature deer (age) not horn size. So are we going to manage by size or age structure. Let them live as long as they want and obvious the majority of eastern deer will never be as big as their cousins farther west. We are making the management units smaller for seasons but trying to manage the entire state as one unit on limits. Little confusing as well. Seems not a whole lot of biology being used.
No..... seems a lot of biology not being understood.....it is being used.....just not to yours and DRS liking.....
 

ScottyB

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Because there will be an increase in pressure on antlerless deer in order to fill tags? They will always be mistaken for does, I don't see a reasonable link as to why that rate would increase.

What is this great increase of doe pressure you speak of??
 

cheapdate

Eight Pointer
Can we find out what the people that actually hunt in the east think. It appears that the folks hunting from the other regions want the east to have to hunt by same regs as them even thought they are already doing a better job of managing their age structure.

I hunt in the East, and I am all for the changes.
 
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