Boone and Crockett bucks by the numbers

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
And they aren't promoting trophy management.

So folks can chill out

BS, They are! Read the lit, it is all about older bucks.

Why is this listed first under timing of harvest then.

Timing of harvest should be anchored around peak breeding
•
Most 1.5 year old bucks disperse or leave the area they grow up in prior to peak breeding and move 2-30+ miles to establish a permanent home range elsewhere. Limiting antlered buck harvest prior to peak breeding ensures that this exchange of young bucks across the landscape takes place, and allows interested landowners to more effectively protect young bucks from harvest on their property.

I was always taught you list in order of priority and importance.

Now, that's mandated trophy management and it only benefits those that have enough land to manage, not the hunters that hunt less than 1000 acres that the NCWRC claims to be helping.
 
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BVB

Four Pointer
it only benefits those that have enough land to manage, not the hunters that hunt less than 1000 acres that the NCWRC claims to be helping.

How can state wide antler restrictions only help those who own large acreage? Not trying to be confrontational, just a question.

Say you own 1000 acres. I live next to you on 20. How will that not benefit me if the bucks have a better chance to grow. Not factoring in that where I hunt the neighbors seem to never seem ro keen on following regulations anyway!
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
BVB, the NCWRC is not proposing antler restrictions. However, it has been proven that antler restrictions causes high grading, so I would not support APR's on a state wide or regional basis.

As to how it would benefit you, it all depends on what your reasons for hunting are. The NCWRC should not be making that decision for the residents of NC. The deer heard in Eastern NC, has a better age structure harvest ratio than any other region of NC. There is no reason to make the changes they are going to propose. That was the purpose for the above post, to show that they are making changes to cater to those that can manage a herd for trophies. This at the expense of the other residents that prefer not to hunt for that reason.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Not true at all.

Some folks just think any restriction on the buck harvest is all about "trophy" management.

The WRC is one state management agency not into "trophy" management. They want a well managed sustainable herd for the future.

No longer is it about killing every deer you see. That is no longer sustainable but maybe hunters don't care.
 
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whitty

Six Pointer
Anyone that wants to argue that antler restrictions is why Georgia has more B$C bucks doesn’t know what they are talking about. I just looked through the record book and just about every deer on there was killed before the restrictions took place lol. Im not saying that it could or couldn’t help but antler restrictions is in no way why they have killed more B&C bucks and that’s a fact.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
Not true at all.

Some folks just think any restriction on the buck harvest is all about "trophy" management.

The WRC is one state management agency not into "trophy" management. They want a well managed sustainable herd for the future.

No longer is it about killing every deer you see. That is no longer sustainable but maybe hunters don't care.

When the NCWRC makes makes management decisions to benefit those that have interest in managing deer they are not serving all the people in NC. They are catering to the trophy crowd. Further more, the age structure in eastern NC is as good as any where in the US. They are also miss representing and obviously misleading the public with some of the numbers when it comes to harvest of 1.5 year old bucks down east. It starts out in their charts at 31.8%, then in the same study it becomes 32%, now in the proposal it is 33%. Seems like they are changing numbers to suit their agenda.

We will have deer in NC, if the NCWRC manages the doe harvest. The does will be breed regardless of the age of bucks. There has even been research that suggest that recruitment of fawns into the herd will not change even if the does are breed over a shorter period of time. Depredation by coyotes was noted to be the same regardless of thickness of habitat or length of the fawning period.

Thus the statement #2 on the list:

Timing of harvest should be anchored around peak breeding
•
Most 1.5 year old bucks disperse or leave the area they grow up in prior to peak breeding and move 2-30+ miles to establish a permanent home range elsewhere. Limiting antlered buck harvest prior to peak breeding ensures that this exchange of young bucks across the landscape takes place, and allows interested landowners to more effectively protect young bucks from harvest on their property.
•
A balanced adult sex ratio prior to peak breeding ensures most does are bred at the biologically correct time and fawns are born at an optimal time, during spring greenup. This also ensures fawning dates occur in the narrowest time frame which could improve their odds of surviving predation.

Note, the word "could" not "would".

Here is a reference to that research: https://gameandgarden.com/sustainability/land/do-coyotes-affect-deer-populations/
 
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oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
I literally meant him, that kinda attitude doesn't scream public land hunter to me. And if I'm wrong (probably am) that lack of confidence won't help him be successful on good public land bucks. I know what's out there in other states, I shot an 8 pt on Ohio public land two years ago that dwarfs the 10 pt from Jordan on my wall when it comes to body size and mass and it was probably a year younger than it. That's why I'm headed to Nebraska in 3 weeks, sure I mainly want a mule deer but the average good whitetail out there on public land is better than around here. Doesn't mean they are running around everywhere or I can't find bigger in NC or SC (my dad's 12 pt from SC last year is bigger than what the average Sandhills public land whitetail is from my talks with the biologist), just that my chances are better.

pm me if you are going near broken bow in nebraska.
 

beard&bow

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Just thinking 2-3 years post change(if it were to occur)... Wouldn't that allow non-trophy hunters to kill more than one trophy buck a year? Wouldn't that be a "side effect" of this? An antler restriction "pain" would only take a 2-3 year adjustment. I know that makes me sound like I'm passing out liberal candy hoping others will swallow it. I would think a 3 year old buck weighs more than a 1 year old buck. In two years we could, hypothetically, all be killing 3+ year old bucks simply because of abundance. Just a thought.
 

FishHunt

Old Mossy Horns
Yes we do

Nope! If you want to trophy hunt then by all means trophy hunt your heart out and the folks who just want to shoot some deer won't try to stop you. Antler restrictions will work about as well as posted speed limit signs...and we all know those are always obeyed.

<>< Fish
 

BVB

Four Pointer
DRS, I get your point now. I guess the folks who just want to hunt any deer would be penalized by AR. Makes sense. I have been accused of being a trophy hunter, but i'm good with that. Its my way of enjoying hunting. I do , however realize its not all about me. I do believe with AR we would end up with more larger antlered bucks, but also now feel it may not be best for all.
But heck, I am far from an expert on any of it!:)
 

beard&bow

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Antler restrictions will work about as well as posted speed limit signs...and we all know those are always obeyed.

<>< Fish

By that thought, I guess we shouldn't have bag limits either. To hell with seasons, or licenses while we're at it.
 

FishHunt

Old Mossy Horns
By that thought, I guess we shouldn't have bag limits either. To hell with seasons, or licenses while we're at it.

Those are only keeping honest people honest.

And you are skipping the whole point that the way you want to hunt isn't the way everyone else wants to hunt. If big buck/trophy hunting is what you want to do that is fine. But what you want shouldn't effect every other deer hunter in NC that doesn't think like you. They surely aren't concerned that someone else is hunting differently than they are.

<>< Fish
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
APR's are not good on large levels and may work on a local level, but can still cause high grading. This has been proven through research. APR's are generally bad. The average antler size may increase, but the overall largest decreases. It is best to harvest by age if you want to manage for quality bucks. At best, the 2 buck limit would increase the number of bucks by 1 for every .75 square miles and that is after multiple years after the 2 buck limit would have been put in place. The likelihood that the average hunter would ever see a difference is poor at best.
 
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Banjo

Old Mossy Horns
LOL. This turned out to be a fun thread to follow.

No, NC does not need a state wide antler restriction.

DRS is correct. You kill deer by age, not by the antlers.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Buxndiverdux

Old Mossy Horns
Kill deer by age....

You do realize that biologists can't agree on the age of a dead buck laying on the tailgate unless it is a fawn or 1.5 year old. After that it is a crap shoot. Cementum annuli is the only way to age a deer. Everything else is a guess.

2-3 years of trail cam pics can be a great tool for aging. But even so, you still don't know how old the deer really is.
 
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Banjo

Old Mossy Horns
Kill deer by age....

You do realize that biologists can't agree on the age of a dead buck laying on the tailgate.

I can tell the difference in a 2.5 and a 4.5 year old deer. That is all that matters. We do not need restrictions on antlers. We do not need more restrictions on anything.


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DRS

Old Mossy Horns
Aging a deer by it's body is somewhat a guess. You can have a good guess up to 4 1/2 though. When aging deer by teeth or tooth wear you can get a good idea up to 3 1/2, but they are dead and it don't matter then any how. That is much better than aging one by inches of antler by far though. That all brings me back to, I feel you should shoot whatever makes you happy. Deer hunting should not be all about antlers. Just hunt!
 
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beard&bow

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
For what it's worth, I try to kill older deer, in general. I'll kill an older doe, just as fast as I would an older buck. Provided that doe isn't with little ones.
 

Buxndiverdux

Old Mossy Horns
I can tell the difference in a 2.5 and a 4.5 year old deer. That is all that matters. We do not need restrictions on antlers. We do not need more restrictions on anything.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How? Can you tell me how old my dog is?
 

Banjo

Old Mossy Horns
Are you for real? Are you just trying to start a pissing contest? Your comparison of a dog and deer is stupid! I am not sure what you intent of this argument is, but if you can’t tell the difference in a young deer and and an older deer, that is your problem, not mine.


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25contender

Twelve Pointer
I would actually kill a younger doe than as older one. Those old does are slick and and have been around the block and know how to survive. My hopes in doing this would be that they will pass on some of their survival instincts to their young.
 

btsharky

Twelve Pointer
I would actually kill a younger doe than as older one. Those old does are slick and and have been around the block and know how to survive. My hopes in doing this would be that they will pass on some of their survival instincts to their young.

And they will pick you up in your stand about as fast as a buck will too. They are definitely wise.
 

beard&bow

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
I would actually kill a younger doe than as older one. Those old does are slick and and have been around the block and know how to survive. My hopes in doing this would be that they will pass on some of their survival instincts to their young.

You make a great point 25, one I hadn't considered.
 
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