Crazy HOA Threat

gremcat

gremcat

Twelve Pointer
When we moved to NEPA we bought the house in a state park that is actually Gameland. No HOAs on the deed, etc. Last week I received a letter saying a strange Non-Profit was holding a vote to elect a Board of aN Association. It stated they met with City Council. What it doesn't say is the Burroughs actually acknowledged anything. It was hard but I took Friday off and went to the Court House. I found the document that had been sent with the letter but in its entirety. It showed a Corp. transferring the Deeds to this Non-Profit but when searching found many had been transferred back a month or two later. It looks like they are claiming rights to the streets not the lots. I ran a check through the scours of Common Pleas at the Prothonetary office and the company that transferred the deeds stopped filing any paperwork in 1978 when the last kits sold. They weren't the Developer and I didn't find documents where the Developer transferred rights to this company but it's possible they did. Interestingly, I also didn't find any references to this new Non-Profit like Article of Existence, etc. In talking to the few Neighbors some are already part of an HOA and this Guy is trying to pull in another 50+ lots. I also heard our particular road was "established" into the Burrough but the other roads listed weren't and had to self maintain. I can't find any documents to support but my Neighbor says it's on his Title. Apparently, I never got a copy of ours so that's on the list. The Neighbor said the Guy who delivered these is trying to get his road paved and his Neighbors won't help. He wants to sell but thinks the road is affecting him. He also is self promoting to be on or Direct the new board but wants to build somewhere else. Unfortunately, he is a retired Banker with way more time than me. I don't know how this works with roads. I know PA has "Super" laws for HOAs like FL does. I don't want this to be a gateway to a HOA on my Title and don't want to let the Burrough out of maintaining our road. For example last winter one storm dropped 4+ft. I am almost thinking this Guy is trying to get Owners to sign into an HOA but think they are just electing a Board. Not sure if ignoring and having no part of this madness is the best way or paying out to a Lawyer. Keep in mind the Lawyer is in a tiny town with limited income and because we bought one of the larger homes here seem to be targeted for a means of permanent income for others. When my Wife was hurt the Housekeeper charged over 500 dollars in one week tried hiring a Friend and didn't clean but half the house. The Remodel Conpanies and even Radon companies took us for Rides that doubled or tripled cost because I was absent and they took advantage of that with my Wife. Even at the Site I am at all are Entitled like nothing I have ever seen before. I am in WPB, MV CA, and Seattle the rest of the year. I don't want this hanging over my head. Those on here that know me, know I don't have a angry bone in my body. Can't think of anytime I have really lost my temper. This brought out a nasty side I didn't know I had. Reading all the shady horror stories of HOAs didn't help. They almost sound like they are unavoidable and "Own" your property more than you do. The local Burroughs support them because they can collect taxes but the HOA provides services. Occupational Priviledge Tax( yep, you read that right) they feel you owe the State, School, and Burrough for providing you services that allow you to go to work. Fees, taxes, etc. for everything. Just dropping a truck. load of yard waste cost me 75 bucks and the Workers were mad I was there and belligerent. I love the area and some people are great but it's overwhelming and I originally lived in NY. On the HOA if I sue and lose they can charge me their legal fees. I am meeting Neighbors and even going to the Neighbor who initiated. We live in R1 Zoning. As rural as it gets in our Burrough. There is a soon to be Neighbor that bought a lot that was originally part of our parcel and received permission to violate every zoning law we have to build. Not going to lie we were going to buy it but Realtor told us it's not buildable and useless to anyone else so no rush. On a side road there are people moving in from Philly, NJ, and NYC because all are commutable. The Landowners there just got permission to subdivide down to under .5 acre. It's a 2 acre minimum to keep the park atmosphere. I love looking off the deck and seeing the falls. Catching Rainbows on seemingly every cast, and living one lot from a huntable park that reaches almost all the way through the state. That said if this passes I am probably going to make this a vacation rental like most Neighbors and move to a larger lot in the middle of nowhere. Sorry, typing on a phone so spaces are hard. Any advice is appreciated. Some Neighbors have agreed to pitch in 1k dollars each to fight but that's maybe 3k total. I could see that gone in the first few wweeks and me shouldering the burden for all of this. With Cathleen recently falling and nearly severing her Liver I don't know that I can bear it financially. Again, anybody that has been involved in these deals that can help point me in the right direction or answer basic questions like does majority Iwners signing force me in. Etc. I would appreciate. I pay almost 1k a month in taxes. I need another tax or fee like I need a hole in my head. I have no time to devote to this so I almost answe my own question on lawyering up but am afraid I will pay the Lawyer's Kids Tuition for the next decade fighting. It's like you have no rights at all anymore. Welcome to slavery.
 
gremcat

gremcat

Twelve Pointer
And I once heard all States are about equal in total taxes you pay out between Sales, Property, etc. Whoever told me that seems a bit off. In NC my tax burden living in Raleigh was minuscule comparatively and even though NC has different taxes, fees, etc. it seems to pale in comparison.
 
41magnum

41magnum

Twelve Pointer
I NEVER hire local lawyers, since they are already going to lunch with all the other lawyers or/and prosecutors in the area.
I'd look for 1 in a larger city, even if I had to pay them mileage to go in person to investigate/interview other owners, etc...as well as the Realtor who apparently lied to you........and look into why/how that lot became "buildable".
Dad was from central PA and we owned rural land in a small town of 200 for years.
Wish I could help more..good luck
 
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gremcat

gremcat

Twelve Pointer
Crazy, just talked to a Neighbor who is an original Owner Historian. The end game is joining this "new" HOA to a large one up the street. That gives the big HOA a private park entrance. I got so deep into small town politics it's disgusting. The Lawyer fighting for this is the Sr. Judge and presiding council members Brother. Most Council members live in the development. Found records where the Burrough claimed the road. Then 6 mos later the same Member denied knowing who owned it. Have a signed law journal stating the Burrough owned the road. When it was presented to the Sr Councilman / Judge he dismissed it. He wrote the darn thing. All my Neighbors on the street that own businesses in town are staying out or going along with this. The larger HOA has reams of lawsuits and leins on property owners. How smart is it to take on the Sr. Judge and almost all Council Members? I always say " The hard thing is usually the right thing". You all know where I am going to go with this. I am going to try hard not to step on toes but it's inevitable.
 
gremcat

gremcat

Twelve Pointer
And the documents produced at the Coubcil meeting and the Neighbors objections have mysteriously been absent from the meeting minutes. Also found were the State admonished the Council when auditing Fuel Tax usage for not being able to present any meeting minutes in years past. I found links to local Builders and Excavators tied to Council Members to keep permits flowing, etc. This belongs in some kind of novel. Maybe it's inherint when small towns and politics are involved. I was happier a week ago when all my Neighbors were just friendly neighbors and I was ignorant.
 
NCST8GUY

NCST8GUY

Frozen H20 Guy
No Offense Gremcat, I added paragraphs.



When we moved to NEPA we bought the house in a state park that is actually Gameland. No HOAs on the deed, etc. Last week I received a letter saying a strange Non-Profit was holding a vote to elect a Board of aN Association. It stated they met with City Council. What it doesn't say is the Burroughs actually acknowledged anything. It was hard but I took Friday off and went to the Court House. I found the document that had been sent with the letter but in its entirety. It showed a Corp. transferring the Deeds to this Non-Profit but when searching found many had been transferred back a month or two later. It looks like they are claiming rights to the streets not the lots. I ran a check through the scours of Common Pleas at the Prothonetary office and the company that transferred the deeds stopped filing any paperwork in 1978 when the last kits sold. They weren't the Developer and I didn't find documents where the Developer transferred rights to this company but it's possible they did.

Interestingly, I also didn't find any references to this new Non-Profit like Article of Existence, etc. In talking to the few Neighbors some are already part of an HOA and this Guy is trying to pull in another 50+ lots. I also heard our particular road was "established" into the Burrough but the other roads listed weren't and had to self maintain. I can't find any documents to support but my Neighbor says it's on his Title. Apparently, I never got a copy of ours so that's on the list. The Neighbor said the Guy who delivered these is trying to get his road paved and his Neighbors won't help. He wants to sell but thinks the road is affecting him. He also is self promoting to be on or Direct the new board but wants to build somewhere else. Unfortunately, he is a retired Banker with way more time than me. I don't know how this works with roads.

I know PA has "Super" laws for HOAs like FL does. I don't want this to be a gateway to a HOA on my Title and don't want to let the Burrough out of maintaining our road. For example last winter one storm dropped 4+ft. I am almost thinking this Guy is trying to get Owners to sign into an HOA but think they are just electing a Board. Not sure if ignoring and having no part of this madness is the best way or paying out to a Lawyer. Keep in mind the Lawyer is in a tiny town with limited income and because we bought one of the larger homes here seem to be targeted for a means of permanent income for others. When my Wife was hurt the Housekeeper charged over 500 dollars in one week tried hiring a Friend and didn't clean but half the house. The Remodel Conpanies and even Radon companies took us for Rides that doubled or tripled cost because I was absent and they took advantage of that with my Wife. Even at the Site I am at all are Entitled like nothing I have ever seen before.

I am in WPB, MV CA, and Seattle the rest of the year. I don't want this hanging over my head. Those on here that know me, know I don't have a angry bone in my body. Can't think of anytime I have really lost my temper. This brought out a nasty side I didn't know I had. Reading all the shady horror stories of HOAs didn't help. They almost sound like they are unavoidable and "Own" your property more than you do. The local Burroughs support them because they can collect taxes but the HOA provides services. Occupational Priviledge Tax( yep, you read that right) they feel you owe the State, School, and Burrough for providing you services that allow you to go to work. Fees, taxes, etc. for everything. Just dropping a truck. load of yard waste cost me 75 bucks and the Workers were mad I was there and belligerent.

I love the area and some people are great but it's overwhelming and I originally lived in NY. On the HOA if I sue and lose they can charge me their legal fees. I am meeting Neighbors and even going to the Neighbor who initiated. We live in R1 Zoning. As rural as it gets in our Burrough. There is a soon to be Neighbor that bought a lot that was originally part of our parcel and received permission to violate every zoning law we have to build. Not going to lie we were going to buy it but Realtor told us it's not buildable and useless to anyone else so no rush. On a side road there are people moving in from Philly, NJ, and NYC because all are commutable.

The Landowners there just got permission to subdivide down to under .5 acre. It's a 2 acre minimum to keep the park atmosphere. I love looking off the deck and seeing the falls. Catching Rainbows on seemingly every cast, and living one lot from a huntable park that reaches almost all the way through the state. That said if this passes I am probably going to make this a vacation rental like most Neighbors and move to a larger lot in the middle of nowhere. Sorry, typing on a phone so spaces are hard. Any advice is appreciated.

Some Neighbors have agreed to pitch in 1k dollars each to fight but that's maybe 3k total. I could see that gone in the first few wweeks and me shouldering the burden for all of this. With Cathleen recently falling and nearly severing her Liver I don't know that I can bear it financially. Again, anybody that has been involved in these deals that can help point me in the right direction or answer basic questions like does majority Iwners signing force me in. Etc. I would appreciate. I pay almost 1k a month in taxes. I need another tax or fee like I need a hole in my head. I have no time to devote to this so I almost answe my own question on lawyering up but am afraid I will pay the Lawyer's Kids Tuition for the next decade fighting. It's like you have no rights at all anymore. Welcome to slavery.
 
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Firedog

Firedog

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
NCST8GUY said:
No Offense Gremcat, I added paragraphs.



When we moved to NEPA we bought the house in a state park that is actually Gameland. No HOAs on the deed, etc. Last week I received a letter saying a strange Non-Profit was holding a vote to elect a Board of aN Association. It stated they met with City Council. What it doesn't say is the Burroughs actually acknowledged anything. It was hard but I took Friday off and went to the Court House. I found the document that had been sent with the letter but in its entirety. It showed a Corp. transferring the Deeds to this Non-Profit but when searching found many had been transferred back a month or two later. It looks like they are claiming rights to the streets not the lots. I ran a check through the scours of Common Pleas at the Prothonetary office and the company that transferred the deeds stopped filing any paperwork in 1978 when the last kits sold. They weren't the Developer and I didn't find documents where the Developer transferred rights to this company but it's possible they did.

Interestingly, I also didn't find any references to this new Non-Profit like Article of Existence, etc. In talking to the few Neighbors some are already part of an HOA and this Guy is trying to pull in another 50+ lots. I also heard our particular road was "established" into the Burrough but the other roads listed weren't and had to self maintain. I can't find any documents to support but my Neighbor says it's on his Title. Apparently, I never got a copy of ours so that's on the list. The Neighbor said the Guy who delivered these is trying to get his road paved and his Neighbors won't help. He wants to sell but thinks the road is affecting him. He also is self promoting to be on or Direct the new board but wants to build somewhere else. Unfortunately, he is a retired Banker with way more time than me. I don't know how this works with roads.

I know PA has "Super" laws for HOAs like FL does. I don't want this to be a gateway to a HOA on my Title and don't want to let the Burrough out of maintaining our road. For example last winter one storm dropped 4+ft. I am almost thinking this Guy is trying to get Owners to sign into an HOA but think they are just electing a Board. Not sure if ignoring and having no part of this madness is the best way or paying out to a Lawyer. Keep in mind the Lawyer is in a tiny town with limited income and because we bought one of the larger homes here seem to be targeted for a means of permanent income for others. When my Wife was hurt the Housekeeper charged over 500 dollars in one week tried hiring a Friend and didn't clean but half the house. The Remodel Conpanies and even Radon companies took us for Rides that doubled or tripled cost because I was absent and they took advantage of that with my Wife. Even at the Site I am at all are Entitled like nothing I have ever seen before.

I am in WPB, MV CA, and Seattle the rest of the year. I don't want this hanging over my head. Those on here that know me, know I don't have a angry bone in my body. Can't think of anytime I have really lost my temper. This brought out a nasty side I didn't know I had. Reading all the shady horror stories of HOAs didn't help. They almost sound like they are unavoidable and "Own" your property more than you do. The local Burroughs support them because they can collect taxes but the HOA provides services. Occupational Priviledge Tax( yep, you read that right) they feel you owe the State, School, and Burrough for providing you services that allow you to go to work. Fees, taxes, etc. for everything. Just dropping a truck. load of yard waste cost me 75 bucks and the Workers were mad I was there and belligerent.

I love the area and some people are great but it's overwhelming and I originally lived in NY. On the HOA if I sue and lose they can charge me their legal fees. I am meeting Neighbors and even going to the Neighbor who initiated. We live in R1 Zoning. As rural as it gets in our Burrough. There is a soon to be Neighbor that bought a lot that was originally part of our parcel and received permission to violate every zoning law we have to build. Not going to lie we were going to buy it but Realtor told us it's not buildable and useless to anyone else so no rush. On a side road there are people moving in from Philly, NJ, and NYC because all are commutable.

The Landowners there just got permission to subdivide down to under .5 acre. It's a 2 acre minimum to keep the park atmosphere. I love looking off the deck and seeing the falls. Catching Rainbows on seemingly every cast, and living one lot from a huntable park that reaches almost all the way through the state. That said if this passes I am probably going to make this a vacation rental like most Neighbors and move to a larger lot in the middle of nowhere. Sorry, typing on a phone so spaces are hard. Any advice is appreciated.

Some Neighbors have agreed to pitch in 1k dollars each to fight but that's maybe 3k total. I could see that gone in the first few wweeks and me shouldering the burden for all of this. With Cathleen recently falling and nearly severing her Liver I don't know that I can bear it financially. Again, anybody that has been involved in these deals that can help point me in the right direction or answer basic questions like does majority Iwners signing force me in. Etc. I would appreciate. I pay almost 1k a month in taxes. I need another tax or fee like I need a hole in my head. I have no time to devote to this so I almost answe my own question on lawyering up but am afraid I will pay the Lawyer's Kids Tuition for the next decade fighting. It's like you have no rights at all anymore. Welcome to slavery.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I could not follow the OP very well
 
Tipmoose

Tipmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
Sell it. Sell it now. Get out while you can. Seriously. You're not going to win this.
 
beard&bow

beard&bow

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
gremcat said:
This belongs in some kind of novel.
Click to expand...

Sell your house, quit your job, write the novel, and send them all a signed copy. Rolling over isn't ideal, but it sounds like you're going to get crushed.
 
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gremcat

gremcat

Twelve Pointer
Thanks for cleaning up my post. On the phone it's hard to tell size or fix spaces. It's a crazy situation but we love the house and the view. Having an HOA for roads wouldn't be a big deal except the neighboring HOA that they will undoubtly push on us is filling up with 4 story monstrosities with City Commuters. I can see Cary syndrome with ever increasing dues. The bigger problem is the area. This is the only area in this part of PA that isn't firmly an HOA worth living in. Stinks all around and going to get an out of town Lawyer it looks like. It's insane the stuff the Insiders pull in a small town and get away with. It's not just HOA or not. It's every major business Owner or Politician.

The worst part is the Neighbors fighting are disabled or semi-disabled Vets. If I don't fight they don't have a chance.
 
gremcat

gremcat

Twelve Pointer
UncleFester said:
This is the truth and best advice. And if you want to avoid something like this run away from any HOA in the future.
Click to expand...

It's crazy there isn't an HOA and nothing on Deed or Title. I even have docs from original Owners Deeds stating no Association under any circumstances and dated to the first lots. The only fight I have is the others I am helping are original owners and know everyone from childhoood. Small towns...
 
Tipmoose

Tipmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
You realize you could just take the money you're going to lose in legal fees and put it into a nice down payment on a new piece of property, right?
 
gremcat

gremcat

Twelve Pointer
Yeah, unfortunately the market is horrendous here and I would most likely have to turn this into a vacation rental vs. selling. We also bought at the bottom and couldn't find a comparable for under 250k more. It's an awesome house and a great area. I would rather pay to pave a neighboring road than pay a Lawyer. The Estates tried slapping a Lien on another Neighbors house for crossing their road and not paying dues. The Neighbor took it to court and the Burrough established their section of road. Unfortunately ours is the critical section since it adjoins the park and falls. I also happen to own 3 of the 5 lots on our side of the road so they would get me three times. I know even if we win I have to push it until the Burrough establishes our road officially and acknowledges old rulings. It appears the Residents have fought this off twice but both times didn't follow it through. Now down to a handful of Old Timers so this may be the only chance.
 
gremcat

gremcat

Twelve Pointer
Our section also connects to the bulk of the properties they want to annex. If we get out of it it would split the remaining properties.
 

bryguy

Old Mossy Horns
Lots of money to made on the opposition side. You already stated that all the players at the local level are going to be against you. There are times to fight and there are times to run. If you can't or won't recognize this as a losing battle, then you will get what is coming for you. As to 'fighting for others' it sounds like they are perfectly happy to botch and moan about it, but yet when it comes time for it, they lay down and give up. You are getting ready to spend a bunch of money on an out of town lawyer, make everyone in a small town view you as the trouble making outsider. You are going to be screwed royally at every chance the town gets. They will inspect you over minor things, fine you at every chance and use every avenue to screw you over every chance they get. Sorry but this is a clear cut and run situation. There is no view or house worth all that hassle and stress and heartache.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Newsome Road

Newsome Road

Ten Pointer
No offense, because I don't know you, but I get the impression you should sell and downsize anyway. It's interesting that you comment about owning the biggest house in the area, and then follows multiple posts complaining about not having the money for this or that. Sell your house, buy a smaller one in a truly rural area. You'll be amazed at how much less stress you will be with a little financial breathing room and no neighbors/HOAs to worry you!
 

GSOHunter

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
gremcat said:
It's crazy there isn't an HOA and nothing on Deed or Title. I even have docs from original Owners Deeds stating no Association under any circumstances and dated to the first lots. The only fight I have is the others I am helping are original owners and know everyone from childhoood. Small towns...
Click to expand...

Sue your real estate agent, attorney and title insurance. One of them screwed up.
 

GSOHunter

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
I have an uncle that sued a prominent person in a small town over a land dispute. After many thousands of dollars he realized the local attorney was not willing to rock the boat enough to get the job done. He fire the local attorney and represented himself. He quickly realized that the court system frowns upon people representing themselves. He lost his local case but ended up winning it on appeal. The appeals court didn't give a crap about the small town politics or that he wasn't an attorney. They only cared about the law. It took him years and in the end it didn't really amount to anything other than the principle of it.
 
Southern

Southern

Ten Pointer
This situation appears to have many different sides and twists and turns. I am not sure we can make an educated decision based on facts as presented which is why I don't recommend asking for complicated legal advice on a hunting forum!
 
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Eric Revo

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
If you love the set up, don't let anyone run you out of your home...
I certainly wouldn't cut and run until all options are used up. And by your description your property values will probably go up as you fight the inevitable. If ypu have to sell, it will be at a higher price.
Appeal all attempts to reappraise your property, and file suits against one and all who attempt to push you out.
Bullies don't hang on long once they see they will have to work to get rid of you.
 
25contender

25contender

Twelve Pointer
Sounds like he is making up the rules as he goes. You cant do that. HOAs have to follow a strict set of guidelines after they are established. Just remember that any vote must be a majority vote and a certain percentage of HOA members have to attend the meeting. Also if a HOA rule that has been adopted in the past you must have a super majority vote yes. And almost everyone in the HOA must attend the meeting. If they are not following the strict rules laid out for HOAs you will win your case.
 
gremcat

gremcat

Twelve Pointer
The house is to big which is why we have a rental underneath. Other than a mortgage with plenty of equity I have 0 debt. Taxes and other costs are a bit of a shock. I was trying to say that we seem to pay double Neighbors costs on quotes. We aren't the biggest in town and are on the non-tourist side. We do have a sizable house in a depressed area so the Contractors we have worked with are living job to job. We have surmised it's the house and lack of any competition in the area. I also could afford to fight indefinitely if I was willing to absorb debt but have fought and worked hard to stay debt free.

On suing mortgage, Broker, etc. it's hard because the deed and title are clear. The Neighbors are doing all the Leg work and trying to help not just complaining. I am working on not alienating anyone in this process and if it gets to the point of creating major disruption with Neighbors I won't. As long as they are sitting on the side I see them as neutral so I am not splitting from them. I have all maps, Deeds, court docs, common laws, etc. to support. Once I get the fuel tax map showing the state tax is going toward the road I should have all my bases covered. The other piece of this is living on a dead end is great. If the Estates make the park entrance their common area my road becomes the highway. We have already said worst case we move and today agreed to put a cap on spending. If it is a for sure loser we will back out.

I like posting here for a sanity check. A lot of experience and good advice received here. I deal with Corporate politics all day and no one else at the Site sees or understands. Having a sounding board to work through issues has been a huge benefit to me here. I was hoping someone had some HOA experience on when they can or can't force you in etc.

And believe me when I say I would rather be posting hunting pics. Thanks for the support and I know this is probably a cut and run situation but sometimes it's not that simple. Not speaking financially but personally. You get tired of the nonsense and always caving. I apologize if any of this seems whiney. Not meant that way at all.

Good luck this season Eric. Tell Jody I said the same and if I get down there in Nov. we will have to catch up. Want to stop in to see the man with the long chin hiding behind the cemetery too.
 

GSOHunter

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
What gives them the right to setup the HOA? Are there Covenenants, Rules/Regs and Bylaws? Was proper notice given? Here in NC there is a 30-45 day notice that has to be given before any type of meeting. Do you live in a subdivision or neighborhood? Is there any community property that needs to be maintained? How did they decide which areas to get to join the HOA? I know in many states you cant cherry pick what you need in order to get enough yes votes. It typically needs to be a block or subdivision.
 
25contender

25contender

Twelve Pointer
In NC I believe after a certain year Developments/Neighborhoods are supposed to setup a HOA by law. I don't know how large that Development/Neighborhood has to be. Now whether the Development/Neighborhood carry's on with that HOA is another ball of wax. I would guess PA is the same. If not tell them to pound sand!!
GSOHunter said:
What gives them the right to setup the HOA? Are there Covenenants, Rules/Regs and Bylaws? Was proper notice given? Here in NC there is a 30-45 day notice that has to be given before any type of meeting. Do you live in a subdivision or neighborhood? Is there any community property that needs to be maintained? How did they decide which areas to get to join the HOA? I know in many states you cant cherry pick what you need in order to get enough yes votes. It typically needs to be a block or subdivision.
Click to expand...
 
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