Western NC River Access

thelivecanary

Eight Pointer
Hello, I've been a keen observer of the site for a while and actually before I moved to Raleigh, NC about 5 years ago I used this site to navigate my move from Portland, OR. It was a real treat learning that there were Kokanee in this state, a fish we treasured out west. It's been great, weekend trout fishing in streams like the Watauga, the Roaring River in Stone Mountain and a few small creeks in South Mountain State Park. The one item that has plagued us on these trips however...public access. Two weekends ago we fished the Watauga and I went with a friend of mine whom was a guide on this river about 8 years prior. He couldn't believe all the signage in Watagua county - Private Property No Trespassing. As a non-native to the state I was shocked. Typically in my experience the land between the highway or road and the river is considered an easement and can not be privatized; not so in Watauga County. I then learn through a bit of research that not only is the land privatized but the owner of said land owns the property all the way to the river and extending to the center of the river. I would guess if you own property on both sides you own the entirety of the river, which in doing some research I found to be an issue further downstream into the next county. My short stint of research has dug up an issue on a gated community that does in fact own property on both sides of the river and have taken legal action against fishers whom have walked the river onto their property. They've also taken up private stockings on this stretch of river, which the state is keen to. This is both astounding and also gives me an uneasy feeling. I'm working up a two part story on this at the moment which will include a Podcast. If anyone has information regarding North Carolina public land rights, access rights and overall fishing access, please contact me directly I'd love to have a conversation on the matter. If you'd like to share your experiences in this forum that would be great too because I'm guessing I'm not the only one that's had difficulty accessing water. In addition PM's are welcome (not sure if I have enough tenure on the forum to receive PM's but you can also email me directly at www.thelivecanary.com, especially if you'd like to stay anonymous, we can keep it off the record.) I hope this thread doesn't create too much strife but I find it really interesting. Cheers.
 

thelivecanary

Eight Pointer
This should probably be under the Freshwater Fishing Forum, sorry. I'm not sure if moderators can move these easily or not but again my apologies.
 

alt1001

Old Mossy Horns
To understand the law, you have to understand that there are 2 parts to the river. The water and the riverbed. You are correct on your understanding that the landowner would in fact own the riverbed on both sides if he owns both sides of the river however the water is a public resource not connected to the riverbed. This is how tubers, boaters and kayakers are not held said law unless they become stationary on the riverbed. I believe the states wording is any 'navigable river'.

For the western part of the state, the NCWRC works with private landowners to give them public access. You can find many of those rivers here:

https://ncpaws.org/pmtws/TroutSearchResults.aspx
 

Muzzleodor

Eight Pointer
Typically in my experience the land between the highway or road and the river is considered an easement and can not be privatized

Look at a map of NC or any other state and tell us how much sense this statement makes.
 

alt1001

Old Mossy Horns
Typically in my experience the land between the highway or road and the river is considered an easement and can not be privatized

Look at a map of NC or any other state and tell us how much sense this statement makes.

I don't believe he meant it as you are taking it.

In most areas, especially in the mountains, they build roads along rivers leaving in many cases, a mere feet between the road and the river. Usually that land is considered part of a right away, easement or what have you hence why often, there are a lot of public pulloffs and public access to the river, on these shoulder areas.

I don't believe he is talking about any and all land between the river and the road.
 
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woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
,,,,,, Typically in my experience the land between the highway or road and the river is considered an easement and can not be privatized; ,,,,,,,,,.

in what state is that common? If it's not public land then it belongs to someone,,,,,,,and if you think private property issues are an issue in Watuaga county then you sure don't want to mess with landowners out west,,,,,

if your talking right of way, there is no difference, but there is little land that the road is so tight to a river like that,,,,,


edited to add,,,,,,,

had to remind myself as it's been 20 years since I fished Oregon,,,,,,,,,you should be comfortable with the rules there in Wautaga County,,,,,similar to Oregon,,,,they have same issues of navigable versus non-navigable and even on navigable waterways " you are not allowed to go above the line of ordinary high water, unless it is necessary to travel up or down the waterway, nor may you cross privately owned land to get to the river or lake. To do so constitutes a trespass for which law enforcement officers may cite you."

http://www.oregon.gov/dsl/WW/Documents/nav_brochure.pdf
 
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alt1001

Old Mossy Horns
but there is little land that the road is so tight to a river like that,,,,,

You should drive areas of the North and East Forks of the French Broad, or the Laurel River out in Madison County. It's a lot more common up here than it is down east. Now, this doesn't automatically give the public access to the river as again, the riverbed still belongs to someone.

My response is simply how I interpreted what he was saying because it is common out this way and it tends to lead people to think that since the river is just below the road, they can simply pull off and jump in without crossing private property. I could be wrong in how I interpreted what he was saying.
 
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woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
haven't driven up there as much as you pobviously, but have driven and walked it plenty,,,,first time in 1980 and fairly often since then,,,,,,,,,,

yes, more common up there, but still most are not close enough to the road for me to think that the road right of way covers access to them,,,,,,,

and yes, the riverbed is a whole nother story,,,,,,,

I'm mainly curious as to what area of this Nation made him think it was "common" as I have spent a lot of my life in the Northwest, West, and northern Midwest of this great country and haven't seen that,,,,,,,,,,
 

alt1001

Old Mossy Horns
yes, more common up there, but still most are not close enough to the road for me to think that the road right of way covers access to them,,,,,,,

I do agree that most are not however you don't need most, you only need a spot where you can pull the truck off. There are many sections on some rivers where for a half mile to mile stretch, it is like this. I'm simply saying that the laws are not very clear on some of these issues and that I understand. Take the photo below for example because this is one I see everyday:

Uko6cHg.jpg


State right-of-way spans nearly 300 linear feet. Overtime, a pulloff has been a established here. You'll see fisherman here quite regularly and across Boylston Highway, down below the bridge. The plat confirms these lines.

Look at this one below. This is East Fork that I was telling you about. Nearly 2 miles of which belong in the right-of-way. This happens over and over again. Luckily, the NCWRC focuses on these areas to gain permission from landowners to allow fishing on the entirety of the river.

RwZEpd1.jpg
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
yes, point taken,,,,but your exceptions are just that, exceptions,,,not the norm that would cause "surprise" that it was different and that is why I was curious where it was the norm for him,,,that's all

and by "State right-of-way spans nearly 300 linear feet" are you meaning from left side of road to right? That's a lot of right of way. Or are you saying for 300 ft along the river? I was just confused by that,,
 

Grey Fox

Button Buck
I think the area he is referring to on the Watauga is the Hound Ears property which was pulled from the Delayed Harvest program because of abuse of the property. In other words the property owner got tired of all the littering.
 

alt1001

Old Mossy Horns
yes, point taken,,,,but your exceptions are just that, exceptions,,,not the norm that would cause "surprise" that it was different and that is why I was curious where it was the norm for him,,,that's all

and by "State right-of-way spans nearly 300 linear feet" are you meaning from left side of road to right? That's a lot of right of way. Or are you saying for 300 ft along the river? I was just confused by that,,

It is the norm for stretches of road as I've detailed but I completely understand your point. I'm just giving the OP the benefit of the doubt that this is what he is referring to.

As for the right of way, I am talking about river frontage.
 

Soilman

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I've talked to game wardens about this and here's what I was told/found. If you can access the water via a state maintained road right of way, (typically at bridges) you can legally enter/exit that water body. (If I'm not mistaken, state right of ways are usually 30 feet on either side from the center line on two lane roads.) However, keep in mind that property lines often extend to the center of streams, and you are trespassing if you WALK upon that land, even under water...however, again, the WATER does NOT belong to any one individual. It is public domain and so long as it is navigable waters, you are legal to use watercraft that can access that water from a state right of way. In other words, stay in your boat and nobody can run you off.

Another tactic you can use, is look up on the county GIS system who owns land going to the river you want to fish, knock on their door and ask permission.
 

alt1001

Old Mossy Horns
I've talked to game wardens about this and here's what I was told/found. If you can access the water via a state maintained road right of way, (typically at bridges) you can legally enter/exit that water body. (If I'm not mistaken, state right of ways are usually 30 feet on either side from the center line on two lane roads.) However, keep in mind that property lines often extend to the center of streams, and you are trespassing if you WALK upon that land, even under water...however, again, the WATER does NOT belong to any one individual. It is public domain and so long as it is navigable waters, you are legal to use watercraft that can access that water from a state right of way. In other words, stay in your boat and nobody can run you off.

Another tactic you can use, is look up on the county GIS system who owns land going to the river you want to fish, knock on their door and ask permission.

This is correct.
 

thelivecanary

Eight Pointer
haven't driven up there as much as you pobviously, but have driven and walked it plenty,,,,first time in 1980 and fairly often since then,,,,,,,,,,

yes, more common up there, but still most are not close enough to the road for me to think that the road right of way covers access to them,,,,,,,

and yes, the riverbed is a whole nother story,,,,,,,

I'm mainly curious as to what area of this Nation made him think it was "common" as I have spent a lot of my life in the Northwest, West, and northern Midwest of this great country and haven't seen that,,,,,,,,,,

Hey woodmoose, I've fished in Michigan my whole life, Oregon/Washington a ton and a few other areas in between. When I say common I mean that I can drive along a river in Oregon, for instance the Clackamas River and drive toward Mount Hood National Forest. Once I hit the Nat. Forest I can park on the side of the road and simply walk to the river. I can also access the river in the Nat. Forest and walk out onto private property as long as I stay below the high water mark. This opens up a ton of river access that I can't gain here in NC because the private owner owns his land out into the river bed.

In addition, I was in Pisgah National Forest, Watauga County and I thought the same road access would be available but alas it was not.

This same scenario above was what we followed in Michigan and did even in State Owned Lands and Game Lands.

Thoughts?
 

thelivecanary

Eight Pointer
It is the norm for stretches of road as I've detailed but I completely understand your point. I'm just giving the OP the benefit of the doubt that this is what he is referring to.

As for the right of way, I am talking about river frontage.

I believe I've summed up what I was referring to regarding woodmoose question when I say "easement" or ability to access the river from a pull-off along the side of the road. What you referred to is also correct and there are many more opportunities for that in my opinion in other states because the National Forest land development is much different. Thoughts?
 

alt1001

Old Mossy Horns
Once I hit the Nat. Forest I can park on the side of the road and simply walk to the river. I can also access the river in the Nat. Forest and walk out onto private property as long as I stay below the high water mark. This opens up a ton of river access that I can't gain here in NC because the private owner owns his land out into the river bed.

Correct. National Forest 'boundaries' is a loose term around here because there is still a lot of inholding and North Carolina's river law applies. You need to get used to looking at maps such as this, that detail not the National Forest boundaries, but those boundaries less inholding, to show where public land begins and ends. Couple that with the NCWRC fishing maps, to see where the public has been given access on private lands.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fsm8_050622.pdf
 

thelivecanary

Eight Pointer
Correct. National Forest 'boundaries' is a loose term around here because there is still a lot of inholding and North Carolina's river law applies. You need to get used to looking at maps such as this, that detail not the National Forest boundaries, but those boundaries less inholding, to show where public land begins and ends. Couple that with the NCWRC fishing maps, to see where the public has been given access on private lands.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fsm8_050622.pdf

That website will certainly help. Thank you for the information I've really appreciated it. I'll be camping at Powhatan Lake in a couple weeks and will need all the info I can get regarding access to all those little creeks in that area. It seems more confusing than other places I've been but again I haven't grown up in this environment so it's a learning curve, thank you for making that curve less exponential and the info much more attainable. Cheers.

I'm really excited to write this piece I'll share it when complete - Cheers.
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
National forests in NC have same accessibility as the national forests in Michigan

Spent a lot of time in the U.P. when I was in high school. I grew up in northern Wisconsin and We'd cruise over there a lot - LOTS of woods and water to foam up that way
 

thelivecanary

Eight Pointer
National forests in NC have same accessibility as the national forests in Michigan

Spent a lot of time in the U.P. when I was in high school. I grew up in northern Wisconsin and We'd cruise over there a lot - LOTS of woods and water to foam up that way

I just wanted to provide some further discussion on the topic. I fished the Pisgah National Forest this weekend...and yes I did get caught up in the fracas of the man hunt. Due to that mess we ended up only fishing for about 4 hours the entire weekend. A friend of mine said I need to stop fishing the weekends, to which I said, no you just fish to close to people. Well we were way up in the chain of logging roads and still got hood-winked on this occasion. I'd never felt more like a refugee and never been happier to be so at the local brewery. Regardless, I want to speak toward the accessibility of the river. The access to the Davidson and many of the smaller feeder creeks is exactly how I recall all of my fishing adventures in Oregon and Michigan. You pull off the road, hike in 50 yards or less, or more; the more prime fishing gets. I found some beautiful water and beautiful fish, although no takers. I'll be back in the fall for some of the browns I saw and it's been a while since I've seen a good brookie so the area looks really pleasing and it's due to the great access.

That's exactly what I was speaking toward in regards to the Watauga River. From the town of Foscoe, up 105 to Broadstone Road and even north of that split up to 194 I wrongly assumed that water was held in the same regard by what I assumed were pretty hard and fast rules of National Forests. Unfortunately to my dismay those same rules do not apply and based on the web links from a few of the guys above I learned this: I need to find myself some better maps. I'm still interested in how the Watauga got to be so privatized; in that stretch specifically, so my research continues and I look forward to introducing that info as it reveals itself to me.

Thanks again everybody - Cheers.
 

haywoodhunter

Eight Pointer
The way that stretch of the watauga got so privatized is that it is all private property that the landowners allowed to be used in the ncwrc stocking program. Eventually they decided to revoke their property from that program and post it, therefore it's now private with no public access. Something that doesn't help that stretch is that almost every tom dick and harry that has been to Boone wants to fish it. That's fine and dandy by me but in my experience so many of the people that want to fish that stretch have little experience fishing in this area and aren't always sensitive to the mindset of local landowners and/or were not treating the land with the respect it deserves.

Something else interesting to me is that there's a large majority of people that live right in that stretch from valle crucis to hound hears, foscoe, echota, etc. that are move ins. I don't have any issue with move ins but they often have different views of how Mountain streams should be treated than folks who are from wnc. (I say that because I work with lots of retirees/move ins who live in that area). It seems like when you have those two different ideas clash in an area where both sides are pretty passionate nobody wins.
 

Frostcat

Twelve Pointer
I've talked to game wardens about this and here's what I was told/found. If you can access the water via a state maintained road right of way, (typically at bridges) you can legally enter/exit that water body. (If I'm not mistaken, state right of ways are usually 30 feet on either side from the center line on two lane roads.) However, keep in mind that property lines often extend to the center of streams, and you are trespassing if you WALK upon that land, even under water...however, again, the WATER does NOT belong to any one individual. It is public domain and so long as it is navigable waters, you are legal to use watercraft that can access that water from a state right of way. In other words, stay in your boat and nobody can run you off.

Another tactic you can use, is look up on the county GIS system who owns land going to the river you want to fish, knock on their door and ask permission.

Soilman is right. I own land on the West Fork of the Pigeon River in Haywood County, and my property line crosses the river to an old fence on the east bank. If I wanted to, I could stop people from fishing there, but I really couldn't care less if they do.
 

Mack in N.C.

Old Mossy Horns
I've talked to game wardens about this and here's what I was told/found. If you can access the water via a state maintained road right of way, (typically at bridges) you can legally enter/exit that water body. (If I'm not mistaken, state right of ways are usually 30 feet on either side from the center line on two lane roads.) However, keep in mind that property lines often extend to the center of streams, and you are trespassing if you WALK upon that land, even under water...however, again, the WATER does NOT belong to any one individual. It is public domain and so long as it is navigable waters, you are legal to use watercraft that can access that water from a state right of way. In other words, stay in your boat and nobody can run you off.

Another tactic you can use, is look up on the county GIS system who owns land going to the river you want to fish, knock on their door and ask permission.

as several have said SM is right but I want to add a couple of things. Never fished out west but what I understand is some states do allow you on the stream bank if you are below the high water mark. That does not apply here in nc as even with Landowners that own just to the river and not to the middle you are trespassing standing on the bank in NC during a normal flow.

also, you do have a right at a bridge to access the river using the state ROW and I do this all the time canoeing but I can tell you guys what I keep seeing more and more is this state is the DOT posting no parking signs at bridges thus taking away that access. I know of several landowners that did not want canoers accessing certain streams and they went to the DOT saying that the cars parked on the side of the road were a hazard even though one has never caused a wreck . I have gotten around this by dropping canoe off with flashers off then parking 1/2 mile down the road and walking back to canoe, but it is a PITA .....legal but a PITA....wish we could find a way to stop this cause I see this more and more.
 

JONOV

Old Mossy Horns
I don't believe he meant it as you are taking it.

In most areas, especially in the mountains, they build roads along rivers leaving in many cases, a mere feet between the road and the river. Usually that land is considered part of a right away, easement or what have you hence why often, there are a lot of public pulloffs and public access to the river, on these shoulder areas.

I don't believe he is talking about any and all land between the river and the road.

Yes...

In Minnesota, for example, the Attorney General's opinion (and therefore what the Game Wardens went by) was that any water where the high water mark came within 30 feet (not certain on the distance) of the road, was "public." Meaning, if you owned a lake and the road came up to it, the public could access it. People who didn't understand this law would get really upset about duck hunters and ice fishermen especially. They think its their "private lake" because there's no boat launch and the land around it is all private then they see someone driving a pickup truck with a trailer 40 feet off of where their dock was.

I remember Iowa law for awhile said that someone could come onto your dock from the lake (your private dock was in public water.)

So, I understand where OP is coming from.
 
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