North Carolina deer hunters owe this man a lot

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
wonder if he is right on the cause of the quail's demise?

never heard that theory before except locals who killed every hawk they could justifying by their appetite for quail.
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I would say he was more right than wrong. When he and Ray Johnson ran the show down there it was as close to professional as it came. When tricky dick took the reigns over it became more and more tree hugger and shoe polish. Not to mention, well I better quit.
 
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Downeast

Twelve Pointer
When it comes to quail being eaten, farmers set the table and predators come to dine. You can't blame one without blaming the other.
 

Ldsoldier

Old Mossy Horns
All I'm gonna say is this. If the prey have nowhere to hide it only makes sense that the predators will pick them off wholesale. When they have the means to get away it makes it much more difficult and the ratios are more natural. Predators are rarely the problem. They might put the final nail in the coffin, but at that point the subject's already dead...
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
well, I look at it this way,,,,,,,,

the "heyday" of quail numbers was, lets say, the 50s, 60s, 70s, and early 80s,,,,

everyone crows about how it's habitat loss,,,,,,that may have some factor, but still plenty of habitat,,,,,,,

what has changed from those years? Increase of hawks/owls (post DDT recovery) and increase of fur bearing predators (extreme drop in fur prices in early/mid 80s),,,,,,,,

if it was just habitat, the CURE areas on the sandhills gamelands would be CHOCK full of quail,,,,,,,,they aren't


but I am not a school trained wildlife biologist,,,,,,just an observer of nature, hunter, and reader,,,,,,,,,

maybe the current quail numbers are the realistic population that was found "back in the day" (1700s, 1800s) and what was seen in the "heyday" was an artificially inflated population due to predator control?
 

para4514

Eight Pointer
Contributor
I have not been around since the 50's or 60's but in the Piedmont a lot has changed as far as land-use since the late 70's. It seems today that most private lands suitable to hold quail are either recently cut-overs or purposely managed by the landowner for quail. Cut overs are common, but habitat goes away quickly when the trees grow back. Landowners who manage specifically for quail are few and far between.

Might very well be that the population was elevated during the "heyday", but predator control is not the only thing that has changed over the past 50 to 60 years. I have my grandfather’s Savage 22 hornet which he bought just for predator control, it was well used before his death in 1978. But, he also had an 8n ford, a pull behind combine, kept the family warm with fire wood harvested from the farm and had livestock grazing in small forested pastures. Most of his neighbors lived this same way. While fescue was released for sale in the 1940's most "subsistence" farmers did not adopt it quickly if at all. Briars, weeds, broomstraw and waste grains were a by-product of this lifestyle, and this lifestyle was the norm across the countryside. These "good ol' days" and the wide spread habitat they produced are a thing of the past. It is easy to fixate on one factor, especially when we see them perched on every other telephone pole, but this oversimplification does not take into consideration the major land-use changes across North Carolina and southeast that have impacted quail.
 
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Blackwater

Twelve Pointer
Having grown up in Eastern NC and old enough to remember when there were lots of quail I can summarize the decline of the quail with several theories, all interconnected; whitetail deer, changes in farming methods, demise of the older generations of farmers and hunters, clear cutting of stands of large pines and others I might bring up as I go.

The heyday of quail hunting goes back to the early years of the 20th century. Northern hunters used to travel South on the train to areas where local farmers and hunters supplemented their farm income by hiring out as guides to these Northern invaders. My Grandfather was one as were a number of other relatives and their neighbors. The farmers maintained their groves of large pine by burning off the undergrowth every few years and the resulting native grasses which filled in provided food and cover for the coveys. If they needed timber for whatever reason, to build a barn or fence in hogs, they only cut what they needed and on occasion they cut some for sale when crops didn't do well. The smaller understory oaks which came up in the pines were cut for firewood when they got large enough and therefore didn't interfere with the pines too much. As these generations died off their descendants who often had no interest in maintaining that balance only saw the pines as a source of income and a great place to have a cutover which attracted the newly arrived whitetail deer. Deer became the new hunting recreation and the quail went to the wayside. The small farmer was fast becoming a thing of the past, the farms wouldn't support all the farmer's offspring and most took jobs other than farming and in lots of cases the land was leased to the big farmer. Fringe vegetation which before might be planted in sirecia lespedeza or allowed to go to brome sedge and other cover was disced up, dozed over and cleaned up to maximize the yield. Drainage ditches and the resulting vegetation which grew along them providing food and cover were dozed full and replaced with subterranean tile lines to drain off the excess water (50's).
No doubt the predators get their share and fire ants get their share, but if I had to point the finger at one thing which had the biggest impact it would have to be the proliferation of the whitetail deer herd and the changes in our forests which have resulted. M2C

This link mentions Hunter's Lodge which was located at Moss Neck, NC, a railroad crossing community situated about halfway between Pembroke and Lumberton. This is one of the operations which catered to Northern hunters and is the one which my Grandfather guided through.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...breth/&usg=AFQjCNHdmVXATbjse0lLj9ixn-RIWE-aMQ
 
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woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
I've heard of turkeys deprecating quail but never deer,,,,,interesting point of view

Ft Bragg has 100k ish acres that they burn religiously,,,,,food plots and native fallow areas galore,,,,and deer aren't near as numerous as they were in the 80s,,,

So where's the quail?

I think Mr Barick had a valid point of view
 
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nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I've heard of turkeys deprecating quail but never deer,,,,,interesting point of view

Ft Bragg has 100k ish acres that they burn religiously,,,,,food plots and native fallow areas galore,,,,and deer aren't near as numerous as they were in the 80s,,,

So where's the quail?

I think Mr Barick had a valid point of view
Quit with the facts, your killing me. ;)
 

stilker

Old Mossy Horns
I remember well when you could walk out here and bump 5 or 6 coveys easy,but there were hawks and owls hanging up by their feet every couple miles on the road where somebody had killed them and very few foxes or coons because fur prices were good...also farmers left a foot or more deep of stubble when they cut hay or grain.
 

Ldsoldier

Old Mossy Horns
The Ft. Bragg and CURE projects can only do so much. They can't replace the millions of acres of habitat that have been lost. The predator question has actually been tested by r searchers. Every time it offers a slight improvement in numbers and survival, but nothing compared to habitat improvement.
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
The Ft. Bragg and CURE projects can only do so much. They can't replace the millions of acres of habitat that have been lost. The predator question has actually been tested by r searchers. Every time it offers a slight improvement in numbers and survival, but nothing compared to habitat improvement.

I'll have to look at them,,,,,I've heard it many times (first official time was down at Avon Park from their folks) but always wondered how they controlled the hawks on a large enough area for a real study as they are federally protected
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I'll have to look at them,,,,,I've heard it many times (first official time was down at Avon Park from their folks) but always wondered how they controlled the hawks on a large enough area for a real study as they are federally protected
Leg holds on poles, high brass #6s. Rabbit in distress calls. :rolleyes:
 

woodmoose

Administrator
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Leg holds on poles, high brass #6s. Rabbit in distress calls. :rolleyes:

I didn't say how "I'd do it"!!!


called in a grey owl up in Harnett county one time,,,,dang came in silent and landed 8 ft from me,,,,looking for that rabbit,,,,,,,,,they have very intense eyes,,,,,,,,
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I didn't say how "I'd do it"!!!


called in a grey owl up in Harnett county one time,,,,dang came in silent and landed 8 ft from me,,,,looking for that rabbit,,,,,,,,,they have very intense eyes,,,,,,,,
I have hunted on a few quail plantations (remaining) in the deep south. They supplemental feed and a squirrel and coon isn't a wanted guest for the birds.

Trust me, old ways die hard. They still guard those little birds fiercely. LOL
 

Downeast

Twelve Pointer
I don't think there has ever been a predator study that attempted to remove avian predators from a research site. Only terrestrial predators...raccoons, opossums, feral cats, foxes, snakes. But even with the removal of all these predators the increase of quail numbers was insignificant and the trapping costs were very high. Long term the only option is habitat management on a grand scale. We're talking hundreds to thousands of acres. Quail management is expensive. Very expensive. It's best to just go to a shooting gallery with your buddies, buy a few dozen birds, shoot them, and then have a few cold beers afterwards. That's how modern quail hunting is done. It has replaced the old fashioned Saturday afternoon bowling alley get together.
 
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JONOV

Old Mossy Horns
The Ft. Bragg and CURE projects can only do so much. They can't replace the millions of acres of habitat that have been lost. The predator question has actually been tested by r searchers. Every time it offers a slight improvement in numbers and survival, but nothing compared to habitat improvement.

That's what I keep thinking...

When people say, "well the habitat is the same," I tend to wonder if they haven't noticed that the trees are a lot taller (and therefore way less undergrowth) and the fields a lot cleaner. Also, they aren't going and cutting down 12 trees at the edge of the field to make a fence anymore.

The other thing I keep thinking, is that there isn't the same continuity. Where it used to be in a dry year they could move lower, and in a wet year they could move higher, or something, now their habitat is more cut off. That former low spot that was a refuge in dry years is a pond or has been drained. The weed covered field was taken over by the old farmer's son, who runs a clean farm maximizing his yields.

Quail do seem to be bouncing back in areas that are a little more open...Kansas, OK, Iowa, NE, etc...all seem to be doing better with quail. I was talking to a guy that found some in South Dakota, not typically thought of as quail country when he was hunting for either sharpies or huns or pheasant. What does open country mean? Fewer perches for hawks.

Just my thoughts.
 

Ldsoldier

Old Mossy Horns
I don't think there has ever been a predator study that attempted to remove avian predators from a research site. Only terrestrial predators...raccoons, opossums, feral cats, foxes, snakes. But even with the removal of all these predators the increase of quail numbers was insignificant and the trapping costs were very high. Long term the only option is habitat management on a grand scale. We're talking hundreds to thousands of acres. Quail management is expensive. Very expensive. It's best to just go to a shooting gallery with your buddies, buy a few dozen birds, shoot them, and then have a few cold beers afterwards. That's how modern quail hunting is done. It has replaced the old fashioned Saturday afternoon bowling alley get together.

Most of the ones I've seen are mammalian predators as well. I have seen a few and talked to a few researchers that basically said they saw much less avian predation in areas with good habitat. Basically if the hawk can't see the quail then the hawk can't catch the quail. Thatch is not good quail habitat. In fact thatch is the opposite of good quail habitat. Most people mow, and mowing promotes thatch (see where I'm going here?). Quail need the native grasses that grow in clumps. They can run around those clumps of grass hidden underneath the leaves/blades. They can't do that in thatch. I had a professor at State that liked to show a picture of a mature pine plantation. He called it "where quail go to die". It's nice and open on the floor, where they can move around easily. It's also nice and clear so the hawks can pick them off one at a time. You look at the increase in pine plantations, the farmers planting all the way to the edge, mowing everything, etc... it's amazing we have any at all.
 

hoyt85

Six Pointer
That's what I keep thinking...

When people say, "well the habitat is the same," I tend to wonder if they haven't noticed that the trees are a lot taller (and therefore way less undergrowth) and the fields a lot cleaner. Also, they aren't going and cutting down 12 trees at the edge of the field to make a fence anymore.

The other thing I keep thinking, is that there isn't the same continuity. Where it used to be in a dry year they could move lower, and in a wet year they could move higher, or something, now their habitat is more cut off. That former low spot that was a refuge in dry years is a pond or has been drained. The weed covered field was taken over by the old farmer's son, who runs a clean farm maximizing his yields.

Quail do seem to be bouncing back in areas that are a little more open...Kansas, OK, Iowa, NE, etc...all seem to be doing better with quail. I was talking to a guy that found some in South Dakota, not typically thought of as quail country when he was hunting for either sharpies or huns or pheasant. What does open country mean? Fewer perches for hawks.

Just my thoughts.


I can't speak for the other states mentioned. However, Kansas is slap full of hawks.
 

darkthirty

Old Mossy Horns
I have been to several private "plantations" that had staggering numbers of wild bobwhites. I'm talking about 10+ Wild covey finds an hour. All had different management ideas on habitat, predators and hunting.
The one common denominator that all these places had was BOTTOMLESS POCKETS! State agencies don't and never will have that. It takes intense year round management and predator control. All y'all overlooking the one major factor in modern day quail managent.....a $h!tload of $$$$$$$
 
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