Simunition Ammo Training around Charlotte

wncdeerhunter

Old Mossy Horns
That type of training can be beneficial - some of the things in that video leave me with some heartburn.

"You're arterial artery".....wait, what?
 

Tipmoose

Administrator
Staff member
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Yea, I cringed at 'arterial artery' too. I think he meant axillary artery or brachial artery.

Still...that kind of education can be eye opening.
 

wncdeerhunter

Old Mossy Horns
My bigger issue was shooting someone because they might take your gun, from a distance, in public, because they don't listen. You're gonna need more than that and much better articulation. That ain't gonna cut it.
 

Tipmoose

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Anyone unstable enough to continue walking towards me when I'm pointing a gun at them and screaming at them to stop is unstable enough to make me fear for my life.
 

Quackman

Twelve Pointer
Yea Im pretty sure the shooter in the last situation would be in a world of hurt legally after that. He even states he shot to soon and they make it sound like it was the right thing to do. Dont really agree with that scenario.
 

wncdeerhunter

Old Mossy Horns
Anyone unstable enough to continue walking towards me when I'm pointing a gun at them and screaming at them to stop is unstable enough to make me fear for my life.

Fear alone does not equal justification - given the scenario that they presentedc the shooter would likely be charged
 

Tipmoose

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Fear alone does not equal justification - given the scenario that they presentedc the shooter would likely be charged

This is precisely why we are instructed not to talk to you guys when you come snooping around after we defend ourselves. The less info you have the less you can give to your DA to use against us.
 

Quackman

Twelve Pointer
This is precisely why we are instructed not to talk to you guys when you come snooping around after we defend ourselves. The less info you have the less you can give to your DA to use against us.

Tip, I agree with your statement. However, you cant really think that the shooter was justified in the last scenario can you?
If I was on a jury and was presented video evidence that played out like this I would find it really hard to justify eminent danger or bodily harm at the time he fired.
 

Tipmoose

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I don't know if he's on drugs or if he has a gun in his pocket or what. Anyone unstable enough to continue approaching me when I am pointing a gun at him screaming for him to stop is a threat.

I can only back up so fast and so much. I feel that shooting was completely justified given the aggressive way the perp behaved even when confronted with a gun being pointed at him.
 

wncdeerhunter

Old Mossy Horns
This is precisely why we are instructed not to talk to you guys when you come snooping around after we defend ourselves. The less info you have the less you can give to your DA to use against us.

FWIW, I was carrying a gun and a gun owner before ingot into law enforcement, and I don't have a "DA".

Second, I would seek counsel before giving a statement myself, on or off duty.

Lastly, if you truly believe that would be a justified use of self defense, you need to seek out training. The laws are what they are, but common sense and judgment must be factored in.

And your reference to "snooping around" is a little misguided, but I think you know that.
 
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Tipmoose

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FWIW, I was carrying a gun and a gun owner before ingot into law enforcement, and I don't have a "DA".

Second, I would seek counsel before giving a statement myself, on or off duty.

Lastly, if you truly believe that would be a justified use of self defense, you need to seek out training. The laws are what they are, but common sense and judgment must be factored in.

And your reference to "snooping around" is a little misguided, but I think you know that.

Sure you have a DA. You may not acknowledge it, but you have one. Possibly more than one. And my use of the word 'snooping' is accurate if a bit pejorative.

As for that situation...as long as I can reasonably show I was in fear for my life, I am entitled to the use of lethal force. Your DA and the jury might disagree. That's a risk I'm willing to take.

But lets play devils advocate here...

If you were in that situation as a LEO you would be able to taze him or tell your dog to gnaw on his leg for a few minutes. And you would be protected from lawsuits for having done so. I don't have any such protections. All I have is my pistol or my legs to run away. Turning my back on him is probably not a good idea. So I have two choices. I can let him close with me or I can pull out my gun and try to convince him not to. So...out comes the gun.

Exactly how close do I have to let him get before I can shoot him in your book? Ten feet? Five feet? Within arms reach? What if he just keeps walking towards me with his hands up telling me he wants a hug? I guess I just have to walk backwards until I can't walk backwards anymore huh? Then what? Can I shoot him when my back is pressed up against a wall or a black berry briar? Tell me...what is the magic moment I have to wait for?

You know as well as I do that you can't (or won't) answer any of those questions. I will tell you my answer. I will shoot the sonofabitch the minute I fear for my life. You can talk to my lawyer after that.
 

wncdeerhunter

Old Mossy Horns
Sure you have a DA. You may not acknowledge it, but you have one. Possibly more than one. And my use of the word 'snooping' is accurate if a bit pejorative.

As for that situation...as long as I can reasonably show I was in fear for my life, I am entitled to the use of lethal force. Your DA and the jury might disagree. That's a risk I'm willing to take.

But lets play devils advocate here...

If you were in that situation as a LEO you would be able to taze him or tell your dog to gnaw on his leg for a few minutes. And you would be protected from lawsuits for having done so. I don't have any such protections. All I have is my pistol or my legs to run away. Turning my back on him is probably not a good idea. So I have two choices. I can let him close with me or I can pull out my gun and try to convince him not to. So...out comes the gun.

Exactly how close do I have to let him get before I can shoot him in your book? Ten feet? Five feet? Within arms reach? What if he just keeps walking towards me with his hands up telling me he wants a hug? I guess I just have to walk backwards until I can't walk backwards anymore huh? Then what? Can I shoot him when my back is pressed up against a wall or a black berry briar? Tell me...what is the magic moment I have to wait for?

You know as well as I do that you can't (or won't) answer any of those questions. I will tell you my answer. I will shoot the sonofabitch the minute I fear for my life. You can talk to my lawyer after that.

Unfortunately Tip, your entire premise is wrong and ill informed. The test of reasonableness is not based on fear, never has been and that is a common misconception. Authorized deadly force is based upon an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. Just because someone has a fear, that does not authorize deadly force.

Like I said, seek out training. And know what constitutes deadly force. I'm as pro self defense as it gets, but if a person does not know the laws surrounding deadly force encounters, they will overstep their bounds and end up in jeopardy.
 
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Tipmoose

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Unfortunately Tip, your entire premise is wrong and ill informed. The test of reasonableness is not based on fear, never has been and that is a common misconception. Authorized deadly force is based upon an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. Just because someone has a fear, that does not authorize deadly force.

Like I said, seek out training. And know what constitutes deadly force. I'm as pro self defense as it gets, but if a person does not know the laws surrounding deadly force encounters, they will overstep their bounds and end up in jeopardy.


I understand what you are saying. I'm not arguing to be disagreeable or difficult. I am not going to be 'in fear for my life' unless I honestly believe I am under the threat of death or serious bodily injury. My judgement of the situation including my adversary's body language, words, and behavior will all factor into my evaluation of his intent. The moment someone ignores the fact that I am pointing a loaded pistol at them and continues to advance on me regardless of my warnings, his threat level jumps way up there. Couple that with an aggressive posture and threatening language and I can reasonably expect that if he can disarm me that I am going to be in for a world of hurt. Since I'm also an old man or maybe I'm identifying as a young girl today...who knows...with a bad knee and can't engage in hand to hand combat. I might well conclude that serious bodily injury is incoming.
 

wncdeerhunter

Old Mossy Horns
I understand what you are saying. I'm not arguing to be disagreeable or difficult. I am not going to be 'in fear for my life' unless I honestly believe I am under the threat of death or serious bodily injury. My judgement of the situation including my adversary's body language, words, and behavior will all factor into my evaluation of his intent. The moment someone ignores the fact that I am pointing a loaded pistol at them and continues to advance on me regardless of my warnings, his threat level jumps way up there. Couple that with an aggressive posture and threatening language and I can reasonably expect that if he can disarm me that I am going to be in for a world of hurt. Since I'm also an old man or maybe I'm identifying as a young girl today...who knows...with a bad knee and can't engage in hand to hand combat. I might well conclude that serious bodily injury is incoming.

I hear what you're saying, and I was relating my observations of the scenario shown. I find that many people (not necessarily you) think that deadly force is justified to repel an assault that does not rise to the level of a deadly force situation. Getting punched, for example, does not generally rise to that level - could it, at some point? Yes. Everyone has to decide when for themselves and they will have to articulate it later. It's better to know the laws and operate within them than roll the dice.

My point is, simply having a fear of something does not make it rationale. It has to be reasonable, articulable, and rationale.
 

Tipmoose

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Then we agree more than we disagree. Thanks for the discussion. To be honest if I were in that situation it would likely end the way the very first one did. With me getting sliced and diced or beaten before I could react.
 
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