Deer Forums/Houndmen Beware

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
The purpose of the original post was to expose a possible alternate agenda for a 2 buck limit in the eastern zone. When I was rail roaded when suggesting the data from the NCWRC's Deer Study shows that the Eastern Zone is doing a better at meeting the NCWRC's stated goals with buck age structure, with the % harvested bucks by age class being better than any other zone in the state. This was less yearling bucks and more in the older age classes harvested. I got no explanation, just a reply " I wrote it, I know what is in it" and another staff agreeing that I was looking at some different data. I would have had the documents with me to back up my claims, if I had thought this is how the NCWRC's professional biologist and staff would have ignored their own data. From the reaction I received, kind of like when a dentist hits a nerve, I knew I hit a nerve and they were silencing me. The data is there for all to see, don't just take my word for it. Look at it yourself. I was not wrong in what I questioned, but they wanted to present it to the other 60+ people there differently. I can not but think that from the reactions I got that there is not another agenda here. Politics at play. I can't help but to think this or I would not have got the reaction I did.
 
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Treetall

Twelve Pointer
I try to stay away from topics like this but................................................If what the data shows is correct and the majority of hunters want a 2 buck limit there would actually be no need for one. The majority would already be hunting by those standards! They would already be shooting only mature deer! So what is the problem? Why change the rules that the majority should already be self imposing?

Bingo. This is what I have been getting to the whole time. ... why does it matter if I kill 4 bucks on the property I hunt? If somebody wants to manage their property a certain way and only shoot 1-2 bucks a year off it nothing is stopping you from doing that. What it boils down to is folks wanna manage their land and mine too based on their own personal agenda
 

pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Bingo. This is what I have been getting to the whole time. ... why does it matter if I kill 4 bucks on the property I hunt? If somebody wants to manage their property a certain way and only shoot 1-2 bucks a year off it nothing is stopping you from doing that. What it boils down to is folks wanna manage their land and mine too based on their own personal agenda

Hahah. I hear ya. Good luck with that. The land is yours...the deer belong to the state.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Bingo. This is what I have been getting to the whole time. ... why does it matter if I kill 4 bucks on the property I hunt? If somebody wants to manage their property a certain way and only shoot 1-2 bucks a year off it nothing is stopping you from doing that. What it boils down to is folks wanna manage their land and mine too based on their own personal agenda

Deer can't read property lines and regularly travel multiple properties.

What you do can and usually does affect your neighboring hunters and vice versa.
 

Newsome Road

Ten Pointer
The purpose of the original post was to expose a possible alternate agenda for a 2 buck limit in the eastern zone. When I was rail roaded when suggesting the data from the NCWRC's Deer Study shows that the Eastern Zone is doing a better at meeting the NCWRC's stated goals with buck age structure, with the % harvested bucks by age class being better than any other zone in the state. This was less yearling bucks and more in the older age classes harvested. I got no explanation, just a reply " I wrote it, I know what is in it" and another staff agreeing that I was looking at some different data. I would have had the documents with me to back up my claims, if I had thought this is how the NCWRC's professional biologist and staff would have ignored their own data. From the reaction I received, kind of like when a dentist hits a nerve, I knew I hit a nerve and they were silencing me. The data is there for all to see, don't just take my word for it. Look at it yourself. I was not wrong in what I questioned, but they wanted to present it to the other 60+ people there differently. I can not but think that from the reactions I got that there is not another agenda here. Politics at play. I can't help but to think this or I would not have got the reaction I did.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only number I've seen you post is that 31.8% of bucks killed in the east are yearlings. You do realize that's 1 out of every 3, right? And that also does not mean that the other 68% were mature. 1 out of 3 were sporting their first set of antlers when they were shot. I bet at least that many or more were wearing their second set. Is there any data out there on the percentages of 4+ year old deer taken in eastern NC?
 

Treetall

Twelve Pointer
Deer can't read property lines and regularly travel multiple properties.

What you do can and usually does affect your neighboring hunters and vice versa.


And your point is?? The neighboring still hunting club next to us shot 28 the first week of gun season. Guess what I did. I shook their hand and congratulated them on their kills. I didn't get all upset and go pushing for a 2 buck limit. I guess I grew up hunting in an atmosphere not engulfed in shooting big bucks and worrying about what my neighbors kill.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
Newsome Road, look at the kill data for all the zones in the state. It is all in the deer study. Link is in the original post. Goal of the NCWRC is 30% or less yearling bucks in the harvest. This is to increase buck age structure. My point is the eastern zone is 31.8%. No other region is even close. When I mentioned this at the forum, they basically said I was not correct. So look for yourself and see.
 
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DRS

Old Mossy Horns
I will not trust anyone that acts as the NCWRC has. This is just one more case, where they sparked untrust. When they where talking out of both sides of their mouth with the Richmond County deal a few years ago was another. Still another was when emails where exposed at the District 3 public hearing for proposals for stopping dog hunting on Embro and Brinkleyville Game Lands.

This is just one more case when data don't fit their agenda, they spin it how they want. I know some hunters want a 2 buck limit. This just falls into the agenda. I just have a hard time believing they have mine and others best interest at hand. Track record is what I'm going on here.

If a company conducted business like NCWRC has, I would take my money elsewhere. I recon I'm stuck with them though.
 

Newsome Road

Ten Pointer
Newsome Road, look at the kill data for all the zones in the state. It is all in the deer study. Link is in the original post. Goal of the NCWRC is 30% or less yearling bucks in the harvest. This is to increase buck age structure. My point is the eastern zone is 31.8%. No other region is even close. When I mentioned this at the forum, they basically said I was not correct. So look for yourself and see.

Ok, I looked. And I was correct. More 2.5s are killed than 1.5s. Roughly 70% of bucks killed in the eastern zone are 2.5 or younger. As for the age structure of the herd, less than 10% are 4+. I'd hardly call that balance.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
http://www.ncwildlife.org/Portals/0...and-Management-of-White-tailed-Deer-in-NC.pdf
data from this study.
% buck harvest by age 2011-2013

1.5 2.5 3.5 4.5 5.5+

Western 47.3+ 29.8+ 15.0- 6.2= 1.7-
N. Western 54.7- 31.6+ 11.0+ 2.6+ 0.1-
Central 44.0- 37.8+ 13.2+ 3.7+ 1.3-
Eastern 31.8- 37.7+ 21.0+ 6.3+ 3.2+

+ an increase from data from 1983 - 1985
- a decrease from data from 1983 - 1985
= equal

My point it is the eastern zone better age structure than any of the other zones. Closet to the 30% harvest of yearling bucks. This with a 4 buck limit doing what the 2 buck limit in the other zones were implemented to do.

All but the eastern zone had a decrease in 5.5+ year old bucks. You can't kill what you don't have.

If you can justify a 2 buck limit in the east from this data, tell how you can justify a longer season where the 1.5 year old buck harvest is not even close to 30%. I'm sure more 1.5 year old bucks will get killed. Now factor in a week shorter season in the eastern zone and lower indecental spike harvest(61% of that 31.8%) due to a reduced doe harvest the eastern season may well drop below 30% for yearling buck harvest.
 
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CRC

Old Mossy Horns
No the 2 buck limit was implemented to increase the doe kill and it did (except in District 9 where doe seasons are short).

All the WRC cared about was an increased doe kill if the buck limit was lowered, making those tags antlerless only and not either-sex.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
That is laughable, since they are lobbying to reduce the antlered buck limit and doe harvest. Kinda shoots holes in that theory.

Back in the year 2000 when it was proposed statewide?

Not hardly. Reducing deer populations was a goal.

17 years later they have apparently concluded they have reduced the herd enough and want to stabilize it in most counties and grow it in the rest.

Current regs are largely set up for herd reduction, not stabilization according to the biologists.
 
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DRS

Old Mossy Horns
It was implemented to reduce buck harvest and increase doe harvest. Either way it did not increase the buck age structure any more than than a 4 buck limit when you compare the eastern zone to the other zones.

Here are some interesting statistics: Lots here love to chase the big whitetails in Ohio. They have a similar buck kill as NC and a similar buck kill ratios as eastern NC. Then make sure to check out the Mid-West Avg buck harvest. Now you are going to even have a harder time convincing me that eastern NC is not setting good as far as age structure. In the east we are even right on with the national avg.

https://www.qdma.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/2016_Whitetail_Report.pdf

with percentages in the 30's across the board in the eastern zone for harvest of 1.5, 2.5 and 3.5+ year old bucks I would say that is pretty even. That are the ages that the QDMA compares.
 
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Downeast

Twelve Pointer
Just for sake of debate , I would like to know how many days a month everybody on here spends in the woods looking at deer or deer numbers in general. This is including deer season and off season a season well.

I see deer on my land every day, as do my neighbors. We basically see the same deer too. I see 7 adult deer cross the road and a few hours later my neighbor calls and tells me he has 7 adult deer in his field.

Saw my first fawn tracks yesterday. Fifty yards down from them a fresh set of coyote tracks. I was a little concerned about deer numbers and coyotes but after reading all of the comments on this thread it appears that we have deer hiding behind every bush so yotes are no longer a problem. At least no one has mentioned them. I guess that's good news since no one wants to cut back on antlerless tags.

So, get out there and choot'em! ;)
 
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nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I see deer on my land every day, as do my neighbors. We basically see the same deer too. I see 7 adult deer cross the road and a few hours later my neighbor calls and tells me he has 7 adult deer in his field.

Saw my first fawn tracks yesterday. Fifty yards down from them a fresh set of coyote tracks. I was a little concerned about deer numbers and coyotes but after reading all of the comments on this thread it appears that we have deer hiding behind every bush so yotes are no longer a problem. At least no one has mentioned them. I guess that's good news since no one wants to cut back on antlerless tags.

So, get out there and choot'em! ;)
Long as the yote track never get any closer than 50 yards I'll promise you that you will never have one of them kill a deer. :rolleyes:
 

pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
How did they get the data on age structures?

The data shows that the entire state is hammering bucks before they develop.

What happens if the data is reversed and you shoot very few young deer and 30% old deer?

so we shoot the same percentages as ohio? Sounds like the only difference is dog hunting (sarcasm).
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
^ I the eastern zone the harvest of 3.5+ year old bucks is 30% of the buck harvest.

There has been research on making APR's on protecting the 1.5 year old bucks. It increased the 2.5 year old class but no change in harvest of older age classes. The risk of high grading offsets the positive affects, more older bucks, but a decrease the average antler size of the mature bucks.

The 2 buck limit is not suggested to protect the yearling age class. If it did have this affect, I don't think the yearling buck harvest would be as high in the other zones that have implemented a 2 buck limit.
 
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Downeast

Twelve Pointer
There deer data is based on the little bit of DAMP data they still collect and what dead deer their staff can get their hands on. That's probably why they came up with the management zones so that they could lump a bunch of counties together to try to make it work. I bet the fudge factors are huge! The only information they have that might carry any weight is the registered kill report (???). I'm no expert in ageing deer but I've seen some of their technicians on the GL's age deer by just looking at them. "Yup, looks like a 2 year old doe to me. Duh..."

They probably do a lot of "modeling". Just remember that beauty and "modeling" is in the eye of the beholder. :donk
 

Treetall

Twelve Pointer
I see deer on my land every day, as do my neighbors. We basically see the same deer too. I see 7 adult deer cross the road and a few hours later my neighbor calls and tells me he has 7 adult deer in his field.

Saw my first fawn tracks yesterday. Fifty yards down from them a fresh set of coyote tracks. I was a little concerned about deer numbers and coyotes but after reading all of the comments on this thread it appears that we have deer hiding behind every bush so yotes are no longer a problem. At least no one has mentioned them. I guess that's good news since no one wants to cut back on antlerless tags.

So, get out there and choot'em! ;)

You brought up a good point and something I would like to see implemented. Year round legal trapping of coyotes and allow them to be sold to live market. I feel this is the best way to cut down their numbers. Speaking of coyotes , I ran one for about an hour and a half last week and had him doing circles but dogs couldn't pull up on him and he never offered me a shot to slow him down any.
 
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CRC

Old Mossy Horns
There deer data is based on the little bit of DAMP data they still collect and what dead deer their staff can get their hands on. That's probably why they came up with the management zones so that they could lump a bunch of counties together to try to make it work. I bet the fudge factors are huge! The only information they have that might carry any weight is the registered kill report (???). I'm no expert in ageing deer but I've seen some of their technicians on the GL's age deer by just looking at them. "Yup, looks like a 2 year old doe to me. Duh..."

They probably do a lot of "modeling". Just remember that beauty and "modeling" is in the eye of the beholder. :donk

Do DMAP properties tend to manage for "quality" or "trophy" bucks?
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
You brought up a good point and something I would like to see implemented. Year round legal trapping of coyotes and allow them to be sold to live market. I feel this is the best way to cut down their numbers. Speaking of coyotes , I ran one for about an hour and a half last week and had him doing circles but dogs couldn't pull up on him and he never offered me a shot to slow him down any.

That's the problem we have sometime. Coyote tired, dogs tired and no fresh hounds.
 

Downeast

Twelve Pointer
Do DMAP properties tend to manage for "quality" or "trophy" bucks?

Most of the DAMP clubs I hunted with were in it for the doe tags. Once they maximized the doe seasons most of the clubs dropped out. I bet there ain't many left. I heard of a few that that managed for "quality"...like it had to be a forked buck or they had some some kind of weight restriction. ;)
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Thanks

I guess the only real benefit to DMAP was/is to shoot a lot of does
 

gregor187

Six Pointer
I have not had time to look thru these and will go back later...

2 bucks REALLY surprised me.....And NO HELP FOR THE DOES ???????? that is the only thing that is going to get the population back up..

I know deer are not down everywhere but they are down a lot in big areas of the state.....Even the Mighty Pocosin put a limit on does and no small buck rule starting this year.
 

pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
^ I the eastern zone the harvest of 3.5+ year old bucks is 30% of the buck harvest.

There has been research on making APR's on protecting the 1.5 year old bucks. It increased the 2.5 year old class but no change in harvest of older age classes. The risk of high grading offsets the positive affects, more older bucks, but a decrease the average antler size of the mature bucks.

The 2 buck limit is not suggested to protect the yearling age class. If it did have this affect, I don't think the yearling buck harvest would be as high in the other zones that have implemented a 2 buck limit.

Very few deer have hit any potential at 3.5 years. I still find the data hard to believe. Too many deer riding in the backs of trucks to believe that 30% are 3.5 year olds. Tons of cowhorns and small bucks and very few that seem to be 3.5 years old.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
For what it is worth I have killed at least three 4.5+ year old bucks, I'm not even sure will reach 100".

I killed a small buck with a small rack on a refuge hunt, I would have guessed it was 1.5 years old. The refuge manager pulled the jaw and aged the deer at 2.5 years old.

The largest and oldest buck I have killed was likely 6.5+ aging from the lower jaw, had pics a year before where he was a least 4.5+. He might score 130". I have pulled lower jaws from a couple more, that a lot of people would have said the deer were 2.5 from the racks that were age 3.5 from tooth wear.

When the average 3.5 year old in eastern North Carolina has less than 8 points (7.3) and an inside spread of 13", some of these smaller racked deer are older than a lot of people think.

2 years ago a friend killed a buck that was 4.5+. The deer was awesome, but it was another that would struggle to top 100". That reminds me of the largest deer I have ever seen on the hoof. He dwarfed the other deer, bucks and does. He could not hide in the cut-over like the other deer. A friend killed him with a ML his rack only had six points and probably wouldn't make 80". I wish they would have weighed and age him.
 
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pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Im not judging specifically by horns. I look at size, features....

Ive killed scrubs that were over 2.5 years old.

I give up. If wveryone is happy, let things be.
 

Downeast

Twelve Pointer
A buck that scores 120 net in eastern NC is a very nice buck. This ain't Saskatchewan boys. Get over it. :rolleyes:
 
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