Deer Forums/Houndmen Beware

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Sorry but farmers should not be exclusively dictating deer management as you seem to want.

And I don't think that is going to happen this time.

How many farmers showed up at the deer management forums? None at D-9.

They showed up to speak against the elk but not deer.
 
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nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Sorry but farmers should not be exclusively dictating deer management as you seem to want.

And I don't think that is going to happen this time.

How many farmers showed up at the deer management forums? None at D-9.

They showed up to speak against the elk but not deer.
How many times do you attend ASC meetings? Same difference. Skip that, I forgot you don't actually hunt.

They showed up to the right folks to get the bill to get the changes on depredation permits nixed before it even got rolling didn't they?
 
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CRC

Old Mossy Horns
How many times do you attend ASC meetings? Same difference. Skip that, I forgot you don't actually hunt.

They showed up to the right folks to get the bill to get the changes on depredation permits nixed before it even got rolling didn't they?

They got it changed to a study bill weren't able to kill it. The GA simply ran out of time to vote on it.

Good luck this time thinking the NCWRC is going to put farmers first. They clearly understand farmers might throw a hissy fit at deer season changes but they also understand its not the be all and end all of deer management to set bag limits and seasons just so some farmers can shoot hundreds of deer a year in their fields.
 

Treetall

Twelve Pointer
Folks come on let's be real here and quit beating around the bush. All this proprosal is , is an attempt to set up eastern Nc as a outfitter destination area. They don't care about farmers or us average deer hunters. I mean some of y'all are acting like there isn't any deer left. Well east of 95 they are thick as flies and pests. Our farmers we rent from tell us to shoot the deer or they will find somebody that will. Plain and simple. We as a club decide every year what we should do. If we have plenty of deer then we go by our tags. If for what ever reason deer seems a little fewer and farther between than usual then we slack on the does.
 

Treetall

Twelve Pointer
And by cutting our buck tags and doe tags , All that does is put the burden of managing the herd back into the farmers court because of my hands being tied because of my tags. Why not increase hunters tags to 6 or 8 bucks east of 95 so farmers won't have to shoot so many every year.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Folks come on let's be real here and quit beating around the bush. All this proprosal is , is an attempt to set up eastern Nc as a outfitter destination area. They don't care about farmers or us average deer hunters. I mean some of y'all are acting like there isn't any deer left. Well east of 95 they are thick as flies and pests. Our farmers we rent from tell us to shoot the deer or they will find somebody that will. Plain and simple. We as a club decide every year what we should do. If we have plenty of deer then we go by our tags. If for what ever reason deer seems a little fewer and farther between than usual then we slack on the does.

You are joking right?

If that was the case there would be no consideration for shortening the season or cutting bag limits east of I-95.

Its not the large outfitters that can't manage their property insulated from their neighbors, its the smaller landowners and clubs.
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
They got it changed to a study bill weren't able to kill it. The GA simply ran out of time to vote on it.

Good luck this time thinking the NCWRC is going to put farmers first. They clearly understand farmers might throw a hissy fit at deer season changes but they also understand its not the be all and end all of deer management to set bag limits and seasons just so some farmers can shoot hundreds of deer a year in their fields.
I am glad you think you have a mainline from the bat cave to the NCWRC and think you have it all figured out. But you forget it is politics that drives that wheel.

Keep stirring, you may have some fooled but not me.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Then those farmers need to show up the 2018 hearings and complain if anything is proposed.

I guess they didn't when the buck limit was changed in the Piedmont in 2006.
 
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nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Then those farmers need to show up the 2018 hearings and complain if anything is proposed.

I guess they didn't when the buck limit was changed in the Piedmont in 2006.
Are we talking about the piedmont? I am not, go ahead and start deflecting again.
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
I don't think the change they are discussing will affect outfitter operations in eastern NC one bit as I expect most folks go there for opportunity vs trophies
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
I don't think the change they are discussing will affect outfitter operations in eastern NC one bit as I expect most folks go there for opportunity vs trophies

Exactly and outfitters generally lease or own large tracts of land where they are more "insulated" from what their neighbors do.
 

Newsome Road

Ten Pointer
And by cutting our buck tags and doe tags , All that does is put the burden of managing the herd back into the farmers court because of my hands being tied because of my tags. Why not increase hunters tags to 6 or 8 bucks east of 95 so farmers won't have to shoot so many every year.

Or.....we could limit buck kills, level out our buck/doe ratios, increase the age classes of our bucks and actually grow bucks to their potential instead of slaying every 80" 8 pointer we see, and encourage our residents to hunt at home instead of traveling out of state to kill a decent buck. But I guess we could also do like you say, and you can kill 8 four pointers, and everyone can continue to complain about the inability to grow nice bucks in NC.
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I'm talking about the whole state.

Farmers and farming are in every county.
Is there a 4 buck limit in the whole state? That was what we were originally talking about. Remember you don't like to derail topics.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Is there a 4 buck limit in the whole state? That was what we were originally talking about. Remember you don't like to derail topics.

There used to be. So weren't farmers up in arms when most of the state went to 2 bucks?

It wasn't farmers who blocked it down east, it was dog hunters.
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
There used to be. So weren't farmers up in arms when most of the state went to 2 bucks?

It wasn't farmers who blocked it down east, it was dog hunters.
Newsflash goog, up until fairly recently except for the corporate farms most farmers were dog hunters.
 

Treetall

Twelve Pointer
Or.....we could limit buck kills, level out our buck/doe ratios, increase the age classes of our bucks and actually grow bucks to their potential instead of slaying every 80" 8 pointer we see, and encourage our residents to hunt at home instead of traveling out of state to kill a decent buck. But I guess we could also do like you say, and you can kill 8 four pointers, and everyone can continue to complain about the inability to grow nice bucks in NC.

If that's what you want to do on your land you hunt then by all means do it. I'm not sure why the deer I kill off the land I hunt should bother you? If I want to kill 4 1.5 year old scrubs and the herd can support which it obviously can then why does it matter to you. I'm just against overreach by any government agency and this here is a prime example. The whitetail deer herd isn't in danger of extinction folks
 

Treetall

Twelve Pointer
Newsflash goog, up until fairly recently except for the corporate farms most farmers were dog hunters.


Every farmer I know around my club is a dog hunter or supports us even if they don't hunt. They got tired of guys still hunting watching 20 deer mow down beans in a field just hoping a Boone and Crockett steps out like the guys on tv shows.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
Or.....we could limit buck kills, level out our buck/doe ratios, increase the age classes of our bucks and actually grow bucks to their potential instead of slaying every 80" 8 pointer we see, and encourage our residents to hunt at home instead of traveling out of state to kill a decent buck. But I guess we could also do like you say, and you can kill 8 four pointers, and everyone can continue to complain about the inability to grow nice bucks in NC.

Look at the data in the deer study. The eastern season even with a 4 buck limit has a kill that shows that eastern NC has a better age structure than any of the 2 buck limit zones. The goal for the NCWRC in a 30% or less harvest of yearling bucks, here in the east it is 31.8%. That is way better than any region of the state. Here in the eastern zone the % of harvest of older age class deer are higher than any other region. The average buck in the eastern zone is antler size is smaller than the bucks in the other deer hunting zones. This data is all in the deer study. I have killed more than one 3.5 year old buck in the eastern zone that may very well fall between 80-100" of antler. The doe harvest in some places need to be reduced, some places not. Any regulation in doe harvest needs to be fluid, where the limits can be adjusted quickly, if need be. We don't need to be where we were even 10 years ago, with the numbers of does we had. It created many problems with farmers and hunters could not legally kill enough to offset the population. Now, with the on set of coy-wolves with the addition to hunting I really don't think this will be a problem, but we will need to change doe harvest quickly if the population does start to grow rapidly.

I also think the dynamics of hunting in eastern NC is a little different than the rest of the state. There are many larger clubs still and dog that lease well over the 1000 acre minimum that the NCWRC uses. I really do think more than 12% in eastern NC hunt more than a 1000 acres. Heck, if you hunt public land in the eastern zone it is likely you hunt a tract more than a 1000 acres.

The argument of smaller land owners down east don't fly with me. Right know I know of one area of about 300 acres, multiple land owners with about 3000 acres of gameland on one side, 10's of 1000's acres of leased land around them on the other. To limit the hunters that hunt the larger tracts when there is no reason, just so a small tract owner or leasee might see a difference, is just crazy. Statistically, I don't even think that the larger tract hunters would even see the difference, if they had a 9% drop in buck harvest, like the other zones did over a 5 year period when they went to a 2 buck limit. The sad thing is they still have not accomplished what the eastern zone has with a 4 buck limit.

I can say that if we need to reduce doe harvest, the last thing we need to do is have a 2 buck limit. The 2 buck limit will put additional pressure on does, where we don't need it. Most large clubs monitor deer populations on their property. I have never been in a club that did not. The clubs will allow harvest when it is not in the best interest of the deer population to retain members, if it comes to not being able to make the leases and having to fold. They would rather kill all the deer then fold. It would be much better to let them kill 4 bucks than decimate the herd. I myself as much as I hate to see a fawn or yearling buck killed I would rather see that on some of the land I hunt than a doe killed.
 

bertienchunter

Twelve Pointer
Or.....we could limit buck kills, level out our buck/doe ratios, increase the age classes of our bucks and actually grow bucks to their potential instead of slaying every 80" 8 pointer we see, and encourage our residents to hunt at home instead of traveling out of state to kill a decent buck. But I guess we could also do like you say, and you can kill 8 four pointers, and everyone can continue to complain about the inability to grow nice bucks in NC.

I like to kill nice bucks as well as anyone and I usually do like DRS states. I killed a nice buck or two (16"-18") but like to have more tags incase I am having a great year. I haven't killed a small buck in quite some time. The point you are missing is not everyone has to kill nice bucks. If they want to kill 4-cowhorns it ain't none of your business or mine. Everyone don't have to kill a dang 115" 8 pointer and post it all over FB and say they got something.

Personally I don't think the dang state should be telling me how to manage my land for bucks if the goals are already being met.
 

pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I like to kill nice bucks as well as anyone and I usually do like DRS states. I killed a nice buck or two (16"-18") but like to have more tags incase I am having a great year. I haven't killed a small buck in quite some time. The point you are missing is not everyone has to kill nice bucks. If they want to kill 4-cowhorns it ain't none of your business or mine. Everyone don't have to kill a dang 115" 8 pointer and post it all over FB and say they got something.

Personally I don't think the dang state should be telling me how to manage my land for bucks if the goals are already being met.

As you said...everyone has a right to kill what they want. Some of us want to kill bigger bucks and see bigger bucks. So...its been done the cowhorn/scrub way for long enough. Maybe it is time the other half of the population gets what they want.

I have enough oppurtunities to limit out in yearlings and scrubs every year. I get to see a nice buck about once every 2-3 years. I would like to be able to see at least one good deer a year.

I have no issue with shooting meat. I never have. I do have an issue with those who watch a half dozen does and shoot the first spike that comes through just because it has a horn. Ive seen it too much. Why do we put in work trying to accomplish a goal when there is no compromise?

there are a ton of people who will watch "meat" and shoot scrubs for meat.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
^ That's funny they even mentioned that at the deer forums. That is a two buck limit state wide would create tags that would be uniform state wide and elevate confusion. However, I thought the idea of creating management units was to better manage our deer herd at a regional level, that was centered around the average conception date of does. Well, if you are going use these new management units shouldn't they adjust harvest levels and seasons in these units to best meet their goals. One of those goals being buck age structure which the eastern season is, by far, the closet to meeting this goal already. The they mention doe season by county is a possibility, which I think may be a good idea in some areas. Well, there goes the uniformity and simplicity. If someone hasn't figured out what tags they have now under current regulations, I don't know what to say other than we as a state and nation have gotten much larger problems. I thought we were a literate society.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
As you said...everyone has a right to kill what they want. Some of us want to kill bigger bucks and see bigger bucks. So...its been done the cowhorn/scrub way for long enough. Maybe it is time the other half of the population gets what they want.

I have enough oppurtunities to limit out in yearlings and scrubs every year. I get to see a nice buck about once every 2-3 years. I would like to be able to see at least one good deer a year.

I have no issue with shooting meat. I never have. I do have an issue with those who watch a half dozen does and shoot the first spike that comes through just because it has a horn. Ive seen it too much. Why do we put in work trying to accomplish a goal when there is no compromise?

there are a ton of people who will watch "meat" and shoot scrubs for meat.

The key here is control as much land as you can if you goal is to manage a herd. Sounds like you have no trouble with deer numbers. One problem I see and have seen this happen down east with the presence of coyotes, the practice of not shooting bucks for meat and shooting does instead. Before coyotes this was pretty good ideology, with the presence of coyotes you need all the does you can dropping fawns just to stabilize or be able to have any doe harvest at all. Nearly all the places I hunt fall into the no doe harvest to stabilize the herd, a 2 buck limit and 4 doe tags is not going to allow this to happen. A 4 buck and 1 doe might.
 
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CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Doe seasons are already done by county and individual game lands.

What I heard the WRC say is they have no problems with standard number of tags across the state and either-sex days can vary (like they always have) by county or game land. That said they said they were not going to change the either-sex seasons of counties because hunters were opposed.

If your county has a maximum season, it would stay maximum.
 
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Treetall

Twelve Pointer
Just for sake of debate , I would like to know how many days a month everybody on here spends in the woods looking at deer or deer numbers in general. This is including deer season and off season a season well.
 

pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Id average about 4-5 days county season and out of season. I think the answer for my area is fewer tags. Deer numbers are lower and bucks are rarer than i have seen in my lifetime.

Can add that coyotes were not a factor until recently.
 
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DRS

Old Mossy Horns
Doe seasons are already done by county and individual game lands.

What I heard the WRC say is they have no problems with standard number of tags across the state and either-sex days can vary (like they always have) by county or game land. That said they said they were not going to change the either-sex seasons of counties because hunters were opposed.

If your county has a maximum season, it would stay maximum.


All eastern counties are maximum season, excluding some game lands so restricting any county in this zone would do away with uniformity.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
Just for sake of debate , I would like to know how many days a month everybody on here spends in the woods looking at deer or deer numbers in general. This is including deer season and off season a season well.

I doubt many spend as much time hunting as either of us.

I take 4 to 5 weeks of vacation a year then my regular days off. I Usually don't hunt on Sunday. So say 30 days + another 20 = 50. I would say I hunt at least 50 days during the eastern gun season.
 

shotgunner

Ten Pointer
I try to stay away from topics like this but................................................If what the data shows is correct and the majority of hunters want a 2 buck limit there would actually be no need for one. The majority would already be hunting by those standards! They would already be shooting only mature deer! So what is the problem? Why change the rules that the majority should already be self imposing?
 
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