Deer Forums/Houndmen Beware

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
I'm posting here because members here know I don't support a 2 buck limit in the NE/SE suggested deer seasons. During the discussion I brought up the buck limit. I referenced the
http://www.ncwildlife.org/Portals/0...and-Management-of-White-tailed-Deer-in-NC.pdf of which was presented in 2015. It was said that the 1.5 year old harvest needed to be around 30%, I mentioned that this harvest was already about 31% and that I did not see a biological reason to reduce the 4 buck limit to 2. That the Eastern Season already had the highest harvest of all older age classes from there own data. That is when the NCWRC put there spin on it and called me out and said I was looking at some other management unit data. Well, please take a look at the info for yourself. It is 31.8 % then a few pages later it says the harvest of 1.5 year old is 32%. IMO the NCWRC has made up there mind from the surveys and a 2 buck limit by popular demand from a survey that due to the lack of houndsmen not returning a survey is skewed. The survey indicated that only 26% hunters hunted with dogs, that's right 74% only still hunted in Eastern NC. I can't help but think this is not a true representation. Houndsmen better get off there butts and be heard. Maybe, emails for now to the NCWRC then show up in force at the proposal hearings in January 2018. If the suggestions from these deer management forums are not proposed I'll really be surprised.
 

jug

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I would like to see a 2 buck rule . Our dog club would benefit from the rule. Would save alot of scrub bucks on the Sandhills gameland and all of Scotland county.
 
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DRS

Old Mossy Horns
That's fine let the club have a 2 buck limit. I just I see no biological reason to have a 2 buck limit. Evidently, the NCWRC can't argue it either due to them spinning the discussion as if I didn't know what was in the study. That is my point!
 
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pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
many people want to see more and larger bucks. Still hunting or dog hunting, majority have spoken for wanting to see more bucks and bigger bucks. Why is this a problem only for eastern dog hunters?
 

pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I would like to see a 2 buck rule . Our dog club would benefit from the rule. Would save alot of scrub bucks on the Sandhills gameland and all of Scotland county.

Every club could benefit from the rule. Does no good for some clubs to try and make a difference and the club across the road shoots anything they want.
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
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I would like to see a 2 buck rule . Our dog club would benefit from the rule. Would save alot of scrub bucks on the Sandhills gameland and all of Scotland county.

concur,,,,,

That's fine let the club have a 2 buck limit. I just I see no biological reason to have a 2 buck limit. Evidently, the NCWRC can't argue it either due to them spinning the discussion as if I didn't know what was in the study. That is my point!

you missed his (jug's) point about the gamelands,,,,our club borders the gamelands and other clubs,,,,,

I know changes are a bad thing to some folks,,,,,but if the NCWRC thinks that is what is best for the overall deer herd, I will believe them,,,,they are the trained biologists, not me,,,,,,until folks demonstrate incompetence I tend to expect them to do their job/profession well,,,,,

Every club could benefit from the rule. Does no good for some clubs to try and make a difference and the club across the road shoots anything they want.

correct,,,,,,
 

Treetall

Twelve Pointer
2 buck limit is the biggest load of crap I've ever seen...... there are literally deer and bucks behind every bush. If you wanna only shoot 2 bucks on your land then go for it but don't limit me to 2. I can promise you if you drop my buck tags to two a year then the farmers will just be forced to pick up my slack
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
The 2 buck limit is due to preference according to their survey, which also states 74% of the people that hunt in eastern NC only still hunt, I can't but help but think that this preference is skewed. Also, when I'm told that the when the harvest of young bucks needs to be 30% and the harvest levels are 31.8%(the lowest in the state) I think we are already there without a reduced buck harvest. Then the fact that they said I was looking at some other data, when in fact I was right just reaffirmed there is other agenda here besides a balanced herd. I don't support any kind of state mandated buck management, period.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
many people want to see more and larger bucks. Still hunting or dog hunting, majority have spoken for wanting to see more bucks and bigger bucks. Why is this a problem only for eastern dog hunters?

Want more bucks protect the does. Buck and does are born at equal rates, 50/50. The eastern region already has a lower % of 1.5 year olds in the harvest than other regions. The eastern region also has a higher % of the older age classes in the harvest, which would not happen if there were not more of in each age class. This all with a 4 buck limit as apposed to a 2 buck limit.

Why the problem with dog hunters? Vast leases cost money. Leasing enough land to dog hunt the correct way takes members of a club. Most clubs the dues are in the range of $1000/year. Change the buck limits, some may stop hunting or at least stop paying top dollar to hunt. In turn clubs fell, without the resources to lease vast contiguous acreage dog hunting could continue to dwindle. To some this may be the wish, but to a houdsmen it's heartbreaking.

That said I haven't killed a deer in front of the hounds in several years and rarely kill over 2 bucks a year now. However, I do like the option in case that once in a lifetime buck just happens to appear.
 

jug

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
The 2 buck rule will help All deer hunters overall. Change is never comforting but there are going to be changes coming to our deer season in NC .
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
No need to change to meet their goal, when it comes to the buck limit in the Eastern Zone. There goal is 30% or less yearling buck harvest, in the deer study data it is 31.8% in the eastern zone. They are shortening the gun season by a week and also reducing doe tags. Being 61% of the yearling harvest are spikes, I'm sure some are incidental kills, thinking they were does. Combine the two and I would say that may even bring the yearling buck harvest below 30%.

Now take the other deer zones, yearling bucks make up a much higher % of the buck harvest, not even close to 30%. Some of these zones are going to have an extended season. Well, I doubt less bucks will be killed in the additional weeks.

Really seems like there are two different standards to me.
 
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nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I would like to see a 2 buck rule . Our dog club would benefit from the rule. Would save alot of scrub bucks on the Sandhills gameland and all of Scotland county.
Personally I think the reason there are so many scrub bucks killed on Sandhills is the majority of them are nothing but scrubs in the first place. There isn't anything for them to eat but switchgrass and pine cones.

Between them damn woodpeckers and the CURE program they have just about starved everything else out of that place. Wait, I forgot damn pine needle harvest. The thousands of acres they have removed the black jacks out of the lower canopy and of course all the forage that has provided is no longer there. I used to go down there and hunt squirrels and coons regularly. Now when I see a squirrel he has a backpack on because he may have to walk 4 miles to find a nut.
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
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Personally I think the reason there are so many scrub bucks killed on Sandhills is the majority of them are nothing but scrubs in the first place. There isn't anything for them to eat but switchgrass and pine cones.

Between them damn woodpeckers and the CURE program they have just about starved everything else out of that place. Wait, I forgot damn pine needle harvest. The thousands of acres they have removed the black jacks out of the lower canopy and of course all the forage that has provided is no longer there. I used to go down there and hunt squirrels and coons regularly. Now when I see a squirrel he has a backpack on because he may have to walk 4 miles to find a nut.

Valid points there,,,,,,
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Seriously, managing the Sandhills is/would be a very unique situation for deer hunting. That place gets an inordinate amount of pressure on it for two reasons. One of course is many folks don't have any other place to hunt. But there are several organized groups that hunt that place hard that most of them have other places to hunt. They hunt it every minute it is open and they have or their families have for years. They know where the deer traditionally will cross given a certain wind or weather conditions and they are very good at it.

If asked why they hunt there and fight the crowd they will tell you, they are saving their good places for later, or they enjoy hunting with the group while the "reservation" is open, or just tradition. And I can tell you they are going to be there to the last deer is gone.
 
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Downeast

Twelve Pointer
Seriously, managing the Sandhills is/would be a very unique situation for deer hunting. That place gets an inordinate amount of pressure on it for two reasons. One of course is many folks don't have any other place to hunt. But there are several organized groups that hunt that place hard that most of them have other places to hunt. They hunt it every minute it is open and they have or their families have for years. They know where the deer traditionally will cross given a certain wind or weather conditions and they are very good at it.

If asked why they hunt there and fight the crowd they will tell you, they are saving their good places for later, or they enjoy hunting with the group while the "reservation" is open, or just tradition. And I can tell you they are going to be there to the last deer is gone.

That happens more than you think on all of the GL's open to dog hunting. Depending on the location and lay of the land a few smaller and more isolated GL's are basically private property and deer hunting is controlled by the locals. Kind of a nice set up for them. Access is either free or if it is a draw hunt then the entire club membership puts in for hunts at $5.00 apiece. Cheaper than going to McD's for lunch. Chances are good that a few members will be drawn for every hunt. Then they either stand the GL boundaries, or drop a tailgate on GL's if they think no one is watching. I have a small GL not 10 miles from my home that I would never think of hunting. The main access road has been used as a trash dump for years (on purpose?) with lots of old shingles (roofing nails). The locals have trails coming in from their property (posted of course) so it may be GL on the tax maps and to the desk-sitters in Raleigh but it's pretty well private property in the real world.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
That happens more than you think on all of the GL's open to dog hunting. Depending on the location and lay of the land a few smaller and more isolated GL's are basically private property and deer hunting is controlled by the locals. Kind of a nice set up for them. Access is either free or if it is a draw hunt then the entire club membership puts in for hunts at $5.00 apiece. Cheaper than going to McD's for lunch. Chances are good that a few members will be drawn for every hunt. Then they either stand the GL boundaries, or drop a tailgate on GL's if they think no one is watching. I have a small GL not 10 miles from my home that I would never think of hunting. The main access road has been used as a trash dump for years (on purpose?) with lots of old shingles (roofing nails). The locals have trails coming in from their property (posted of course) so it may be GL on the tax maps and to the desk-sitters in Raleigh but it's pretty well private property in the real world.

Just to be fair, non-dog hunting clubs do the same thing.
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
Seriously, managing the Sandhills is/would be a very unique situation for deer hunting. That place gets an inordinate amount of pressure on it for two reasons. One of course is many folks don't have any other place to hunt. But there are several organized groups that hunt that place hard that most of them have other places to hunt. They hunt it every minute it is open and they have or their families have for years. They know where the deer traditionally will cross given a certain wind or weather conditions and they are very good at it.

If asked why they hunt there and fight the crowd they will tell you, they are saving their good places for later, or they enjoy hunting with the group while the "reservation" is open, or just tradition. And I can tell you they are going to be there to the last deer is gone.

can't speak to other gamelands but that is 100% correct on Sandhills,,,,,my little place here butts up against a piece of the sandhills,,,,,,some clubs/groups hit it HARD for the few weekends it's open,,,and them fellows know what they are doing when it comes to "brown it's down",,,,,,,,
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
can't speak to other gamelands but that is 100% correct on Sandhills,,,,,my little place here butts up against a piece of the sandhills,,,,,,some clubs/groups hit it HARD for the few weekends it's open,,,and them fellows know what they are doing when it comes to "brown it's down",,,,,,,,
Yeah, I was involved with them both professionally years ago and later through the club personally. That was how I got to know how they operated.

Quite frankly it was a long time before I understood what was really going on. And you are right, they are very good at what they do. I can't really hold it against them anymore or hold hard feelings toward them like I once did because I now have seen how hard they work involving kids as well as old folks. They also don't waste a drop of meat and distribute it to folks that no longer are able to hunt. That being said they are masters at skirting mr. green jeans as they like to call him. LMAO
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
Yeah, I was involved with them both professionally years ago and later through the club personally. That was how I got to know how they operated.

Quite frankly it was a long time before I understood what was really going on. And you are right, they are very good at what they do. I can't really hold it against them anymore or hold hard feelings toward them like I once did because I now have seen how hard they work involving kids as well as old folks. They also don't waste a drop of meat and distribute it to folks that no longer are able to hunt. That being said they are masters at skirting mr. green jeans as they like to call him. LMAO


every once in a while a the group here tries to slip down our road (it's a mile down it from the main road to the house) and turn out,,,,,,you catch them they are always "looking for the road to the gameland",,,,,,they know dang well how to get there but I'm a nice fellow,,,,I tell them "can't get there from here, but go back that away, turn right, and go down 3/4 of a mile",,,,,of course 99% of the time they go out but go left to go around to the other side of the creek and turn out on our club land,,,unless we bounce them,,,,,

but they do involve youth (not 100% sure what they really are teaching them!!)and use all the meat,,,never see it wasted,,,,,
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
every once in a while a the group here tries to slip down our road (it's a mile down it from the main road to the house) and turn out,,,,,,you catch them they are always "looking for the road to the gameland",,,,,,they know dang well how to get there but I'm a nice fellow,,,,I tell them "can't get there from here, but go back that away, turn right, and go down 3/4 of a mile",,,,,of course 99% of the time they go out but go left to go around to the other side of the creek and turn out on our club land,,,unless we bounce them,,,,,

but they do involve youth (not 100% sure what they really are teaching them!!)and use all the meat,,,never see it wasted,,,,,
Yeah, that is one of the real things that I have a problem with, the kids. They many times are keeping them from being places that they would really get in trouble. Yet they are teaching them tactics that really are shady at best at times and downright wrong at others. Makes me glad I am not involved anymore.
 

Newsome Road

Ten Pointer
2 buck limit is the biggest load of crap I've ever seen...... there are literally deer and bucks behind every bush. If you wanna only shoot 2 bucks on your land then go for it but don't limit me to 2. I can promise you if you drop my buck tags to two a year then the farmers will just be forced to pick up my slack

And here lies the problem....they are cutting out two of your buck tags. I think the ~50,000 farmers in NC can handle that slack. But surely you weren't insinuating that you kill enough bucks that they'd all need to come together to cover your deficit?
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
And here lies the problem....they are cutting out two of your buck tags. I think the ~50,000 farmers in NC can handle that slack. But surely you weren't insinuating that you kill enough bucks that they'd all need to come together to cover your deficit?
That isn't what he is saying. What he is saying is why cut back the part of the state that already has a herd problem and depredation is a big issue? That it will just be more deer that farmers will shoot plus they will look at it as NCWRC isn't taking them (farmers) seriously and they may actually kill even more deer than before.
 

pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I may be misunderstanding....but it seems that some get upset about not being able to shoot as many buvks as they want. I surely dont understand how shooting fewer bucks will increase the herd size. Last i checked new deer popped out of does....and one buck can handle as many does as 10 bucks if it comes down to it
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
woodmoose and nccatfisher, when it comes to the kids and these rogue poachers, it just makes me cringe. They are probably teaching the kids bad judgement and actions in other aspects of life, too! Those people need to be caught and charged accordingly. I know that is much easier said than done though.
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
woodmoose and nccatfisher, when it comes to the kids and these rogue poachers, it just makes me cringe. They are probably teaching the kids bad judgement and actions in other aspects of life, too! Those people need to be caught and charged accordingly. I know that is much easier said than done though.

you are 100% correct Sir,,,,,,
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
I may be misunderstanding....but it seems that some get upset about not being able to shoot as many buvks as they want. I surely dont understand how shooting fewer bucks will increase the herd size. Last i checked new deer popped out of does....and one buck can handle as many does as 10 bucks if it comes down to it

I didn't take this as aimed for me, but I thought I would expand on how I do feel. I hunt in several clubs, one leases near 10,000 acres, one 2,000 acres, then I lease two tracts one 83 acres(near home) and an a 250 acre farm next to where I work. One reason I pay to hunt different places is so I don't over harvest on any one place. Last year the only deer I shot on land that was leased was on the 250 acre farm, a buck and a doe. I also have several more hundred acres I hunt for free. I did kill another buck and doe on a permit hunt on public land. Back to what I was saying. Both clubs monitor the deer population well and the general membership decides on what we should do as far as harvest. The vast majority of members know if our local deer herd is in trouble. One club had a no doe rule 3 years ago, then requested that members think about not harvesting does in subsequent years. This is working to bring the deer herd back or at least stabilize it. On my leases I don't shoot does unless I know the family group can sustain itself with a harvest. I do know what my neighbors are harvesting and I do that that into consideration also. I might go several years and not shot a deer on any single lease or club. However, when that exceptional year rolls around I do have a chance at harvesting more that a couple nice bucks, I do like to reap the benefits of paying to hunt that much property. The buck harvest for these clubs is about .5/member and most are nice bucks. Both of these clubs buck harvest is around 2.5 bucks per square mile. I don't want to keep a for buck limit to slay the bucks. I want it to be able to reap the benefits of leasing large acreage and multiple leases. Most people don't go wild trying to kill or fill all their tags, but it is sure good to have them if your having an exceptional season. Especially, when goals of the NCWRC are being meet. Then there are those that will kill x amount of bucks or does no matter what, until they are caught.

I hunt a lot, usually every day I can. I have finally gotten to the point in my life with work where I get to deer hunt 50 - 60 days a year. I will try and take 2 respectable bucks for the areas I hunt a year. I just hate to think I'll have all those days to hunt that I may not go, maybe won't carry a gun or any weapon. I always liked the option if that once in a lifetime buck showed I would still be legal. So with a two buck limit, I would be limited to one. One deer a year in the freezer. Well, that is what it would be if the herd don't have enough does, 'cause I'm not wanting to push the herd over the edge. Like I said, all the places I hunt we have drastically reduced or stopped doe harvest.
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I may be misunderstanding....but it seems that some get upset about not being able to shoot as many buvks as they want. I surely dont understand how shooting fewer bucks will increase the herd size. Last i checked new deer popped out of does....and one buck can handle as many does as 10 bucks if it comes down to it
Yeah that is the nuts and bolts of it. But to a farmers perspective it kinda goes like this. They are cutting buck harvests by 50% they are cutting unlimited doe harvest out. They recently tried to stop us from protecting our crops and failed miserably. It appears they are in the business of protecting these pests and not worrying about us providing for our families. We better try to wipe 'em out while we can.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Farmers will still be able to shoot does and get depredation permits. Also the DMAP program is still on the books.

If farmers want high does kills, they can still do it.

Also if the WRC does go to 4 "doe" tags and 2 "buck" tags, it might increase the doe kill because folks no longer can use "either-sex" tags as "buck" tags. Assuming many hunters refused to shell out for bonus tags.

How many folks use "either-sex" tags exclusively to kill antlered bucks?
 
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nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Farmers will still be able to shoot does and get depredation permits. Also the DMAP program is still on the books.

If farmers want high does kills, they can still do it.

Also if the WRC does go to 4 "doe" tags and 2 "buck" tags, it might increase the doe kill because folks no longer can use "either-sex" tags as "buck" tags. Assuming many hunters refused to shell out for bonus tags.

How many folks use "either-sex" tags exclusively to kill antlered bucks?
As usual, you didn't get it.
 
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