Dog hunting bill introduced into NCGA

Tipmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
Prohibition. – It shall be unlawful for any dog owner or handler to pursue or chase
deer with dogs for the purpose of training or hunting on any tract of property or to fail to
prevent dogs from entering any tract of property for which they do not have authorization to
train or hunt, except under any of the following circumstances:
(1) The person owns the property.
(2) The person leases the deer hunting rights for the property.
(3) The person has obtained permission from the owner or lessor of the property
as provided in subsection (b) of this section.
(4) The person is on public hunting grounds or game lands and the land owner
or managing entity has authorized the use of dogs to pursue or chase deer for
the purpose of training or hunting.

(e) Additional Prohibition. – No dogs may be released from the right-of-way of a public
road to pursue or chase deer for the purpose of training or hunting unless one of the exceptions
set out in subsection (a) of this section applies for all property directly adjoining the
right-of-way at the point where the dogs are released.
 

ncdeerhunterRC

Four Pointer
As written, much too broad and over-reaching not to mention impossible to police. It effectively would end hunting deer with dogs in NC as it is a perfect example of regulating it out of practice for the law abiding deer dog hunters, while will not stop the rogues. I understand that hunting deer with dogs is the "low hanging fruit" as that is where most of the visible problems occur between landowners and hunters. But what about those coon hunters that are crossing my land every night to get their dogs that treed a coon on my property or those rabbit hunters that get on my land when a rabbit crosses the property line or the bear hunters who run a bear across my land? If a coon or a rabbit had a 10 point rack it would be different. I do not support the unauthorized intent to deer hunt someone else's land with dogs but there is a difference between intent to hunt someone else's land with dogs vs accidental crossing. I understand that landowner rights are hot topic right now and I support landowner rights but we have long since entered the era in society where every group under the sun has "rights" and no one wants to work together for a solution. The typical result is division which is what this is going to do to hunters (which is exactly what the anti-hunting groups want). Well let the fighting begin.
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
As written, much too broad and over-reaching not to mention impossible to police. It effectively would end hunting deer with dogs in NC as it is a perfect example of regulating it out of practice for the law abiding deer dog hunters, while will not stop the rogues. I understand that hunting deer with dogs is the "low hanging fruit" as that is where most of the visible problems occur between landowners and hunters. But what about those coon hunters that are crossing my land every night to get their dogs that treed a coon on my property or those rabbit hunters that get on my land when a rabbit crosses the property line or the bear hunters who run a bear across my land? If a coon or a rabbit had a 10 point rack it would be different. I do not support the unauthorized intent to deer hunt someone else's land with dogs but there is a difference between intent to hunt someone else's land with dogs vs accidental crossing. I understand that landowner rights are hot topic right now and I support landowner rights but we have long since entered the era in society where every group under the sun has "rights" and no one wants to work together for a solution. The typical result is division which is what this is going to do to hunters (which is exactly what the anti-hunting groups want). Well let the fighting begin.
Those coon hunters etc, still don't have a RIGHT in NC to go get their dogs. They shouldn't have allowed them to get on you in the first place. In this day and time it could have been avoided with the technology available to them. And I am not casting stones, I am one of them. But as people here that have hunted with me can attest, I pretty much keep mine in check. I can't remember when one of mine got somewhere they weren't supposed to be.

But, they are doing just like the anti-gun crowd, making more rules/laws when they already have plenty on the books to cover what is going on that they don't enforce.
 
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ncdeerhunterRC

Four Pointer
Those coon hunters etc, still don't have a RIGHT in NC to go get their dogs. They shouldn't have allowed them to get on you in the first place. In this day and time it could have been avoided with the technology available to them. And I am not casting stones, I am one of them. But as people here that have hunted with me can attest, I pretty much keep mine in check. I can't remember when one of mine got somewhere they weren't supposed to be.

But, they are doing just like the anti-gun crowd, making more rules/laws when they already have plenty on the books to cover what is going on that they don't enforce.

nccatfisher, you hit the nail on the head. I have no problem with coon hunters, rabbit hunters, hog hunters, bird hunters or bear hunters who hunt with dogs. My point is legislation like this creates division (which is what the anti-gun crowd wants). We have members of our deer dog club that coon hunt, rabbit hunt and hog hunt with dogs AND we have members who still hunt for deer and we all get along. Everyone has occasional problems. We had a problem with our hog dogs getting on someone else's land a couple of weeks ago, but we worked it out. It was an accident and I took ownership for the club, apologized to the landowner and we put things in place so it won't happen again. We have the technology (Garmins) on all our dogs that greatly reduces our deer dogs from getting on someone else's land but it does happen despite our best efforts to stop it. You know what, if your dogs get on my land, you ask me can you go get them and I'll gladly let you go get them. If you intentionally turn loose on my land with the intent to hunt my land then that's a different story. If this legislation passes, we have no choice as a club but to cease and desist hunting deer with dogs, which is what the intent is.
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Yep, that is what they are trying to do without saying it. This bill has already been published around the sporting dog associations. We will see what happens, I have my ideas but it is still early.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
Failed to prevent and required documentation I have a problem with.

First failed to prevent, I have technology on my side and have my dogs trained; however, there will be times when it is impossible to be where the dogs are crossing a property line. What I can assure is I will get them off as quickly as I can, which is usually a matter of minutes. So, if this part of the law sticks it can be reasonable to say it will make dog hunting for deer illegal. Having good relationships with the neighbors can help, if they are not secretly h3ll bent on seeing it gone.

Required documentation, posted signs and a membership card or written permission ought to be sufficient. No more, no less than any other type of hunting.

What about when the hounds cross the lines on a cat, fox, yote or maybe even a bear?
 
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DRS

Old Mossy Horns
The bill was introduced by representatives from Wake and Catawba counties. Other than a little slice of Wake, basically two counties that don't have hunting deer with dogs. Politics at play, there are other things going on here. My bet is on big money! Which is not limited to but I would bet includes commercialization of hunting. So any of you guys that hunt, even if you don't dog hunt or even despise it, need to pay attention to what is pushing such a harshly worded bill.
 
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ncdeerhunterRC

Four Pointer
There are lots of misinformation floating around. The legislation was filed late yesterday. It will be read in the House on Monday and assigned to a committee. It is a long process from this point to where it will be voted on. Once in committee, then we will know who to contact to constructively kill this bill. There are politics at play and all of it backroom. As DRS said, if you hunt, no matter the species nor whether or not you use a dog, you better watch this closely and work to get this detrimental bill to all of hunting stopped.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
There are lots of misinformation floating around. The legislation was filed late yesterday. It will be read in the House on Monday and assigned to a committee. It is a long process from this point to where it will be voted on. Once in committee, then we will know who to contact to constructively kill this bill. There are politics at play and all of it backroom. As DRS said, if you hunt, no matter the species nor whether or not you use a dog, you better watch this closely and work to get this detrimental bill to all of hunting stopped.

It could be sent by Speaker Moore to the House rules committee to die as well.
 

NCGunDude

Eight Pointer

Bills get introduced all their time. It always makes titilating news if its controversial. Of course, no one supports poaching or trespassing. If current laws provide inadequate protection against abuse, then I'might all for hearing them out. I've noted criticism of them bill as written. In these spirit of them OP, are existing protections adequate, and does anything need to be done to curb abuse?

Currently, laws vary county to county. Should these be codified into statute, allowing for regional variance, or left up to NCWRC? Please note, I'm a land owner who hunts my own land, and have to deal with dogs, deer hounds and strays all the time.
 
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DRS

Old Mossy Horns
To be fair, it was put forward that a dog hunter association was willing and knows some regulation could be good. The idea was to have a council/board of houndsmen work with the NCWRC and have a permit type system. The board would review complaints and when a problem was found the permit would be pulled. I understand many people, including legislators, liked the idea and were interested. The problem was the states attorney said there would legal issues with a board having the power to revoke a permit that the NCWRC issued.

Why not have the NCWRC review the permits? One the NCWRC hasn't proved itself to be trustworthy enough to be entrusted to this duty. I for one have spoken with NCW Commissioners and from what they say and then seeing their actions convinced me that some are speaking out of both sides of their mouth.

So the real question would be could there be a legal way to have an advisory committee of houndsmen to work with the NCWRC on a permit system?

Meanwhile, all hunters should be weary of just what is pushing this bill. If you can come up with a reason why a dog deer hunter, needs to have any more documentation for property they have permission to hunt a property, than any other hunter using a different method, fire away. When you can get deer to have their home ranges aligned with property lines, I go along with the "fail to prevent" that allows for no incidental dog crossing.

To have a bill like this introduced by legislators that do not have districts in counties that allow dog hunting should raise enough concern to look deeper.
 
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RJ1

Ten Pointer
It really interests me when representatives from counties that have no deer hunting with hounds or almost no deer hunting with hounds enter bills that basically deals with only deer hunting with dogs,seems there might be some out of sight political moves being made.Are they trying to placate someone or are they testing the waters to see if down the road they are going to go after other forms of dog hunting.
No good dog hunter of anykind wants his hounds to get on land he cannot hunt,takes time away from his hunt to recover them.I use some of the most modern tracking/training equip on the market,have worked with my hounds hour after hour training them with that equip..I don't want to blow my own horn but I think I have done a good job,however there is no way I can 100% guarantee my hounds will not get on someones land I don't have permission to hunt on,what I can guarantee I am going to make every effort to stop them from getting on there,if they do get on there and they are not running I will have get them off a quickly as I can,if I mess up your hunt I will let you kill a bear in front of my hounds on private land I own or control or I will let you hunt said land for deer until you take one of your choosing not mine that's the best I can do.No mater what kinda laws are on the books guys that are breaking them now will continue to break them,with some refining the laws we have on the books would work if enforced.
 
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CRC

Old Mossy Horns
The two sponsors of this bill are the chairmen of the state house wildlife resources committee.

That might explain why they introduced the bill.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
To have a bill like this introduced by legislators that do not have districts in counties that allow dog hunting should raise enough concern to look deeper.

Maybe so but the two are chairmen of the house committee that deals with hunting.

Somebody must have approached them because they run that committee.
 

RJ1

Ten Pointer
Maybe so but the two are chairmen of the house committee that deals with hunting.

Somebody must have approached them because they run that committee.

Yep I knew that still stand by what DRS and I said.
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Shoot Mcclees a message, they know, they didn't have any problem tracing where it came from and it wasn't any surprise.
 

jug

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I think they are fishing. I don't see this going statewide. County by county will mandate the dog hunting laws.
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I think you are right on the fishing, or wishing. I am all for landowner rights, I detest a rogue hunter no matter if it is a dog hunter or not, but I believe the true motive behind this particular bill is not as it appears if I have been told correctly.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
If it is for regulation for deer hunting with dogs for the most part we as deer dog hunters are not against that in itself. Like I have said before the deer dog hunting community had ideas on how this could be done and be effective. What we(hunters, legislators and the NCWRC) need is to figure out is how to make a houndsmen committee that would be legal to over see a permit system. I'm sure there is a way, if enough minds are serious enough to work out a solution.

For those that say let the NCWRC over see the permits, I have one question. Why does not the NCWRC implement a permit system for deer hunting with dogs in the part of the state where they could? There is plenty of land where it is feasible. You say others may not want it; however, if hunting with the hound would not be conducted proper the permits would be revoked. No reason not to practice this in the part of the state where the NCWRC has control of deer hunting with dogs. This would go a long way for deer dog hunters gaining trust in the NCWRC, until then we will just have to go on what we have experienced. This experience has not exactly been a positive one for deer dog hunters.
 

jug

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I think you are right on the fishing, or wishing. I am all for landowner rights, I detest a rogue hunter no matter if it is a dog hunter or not, but I believe the true motive behind this particular bill is not as it appears if I have been told correctly.
My wife said the same thing. I told her what was going on and she said ..... sounds like they are after something else. No way you can keep a dog from running a deer across your property. Yesterday evening while I was out walking my farm here in Harnett trying to roost a gobbler.... I see my neighbors black lab mutt running a deer across my clearcut. Am I going to call the sheriff and have them issue a warrant for arrest because his dog jumped a deer on his 54 acre farm and ran him across my place????
NO!
I know folks get pissed off when dogs ruin their still hunt but we have had our dog hunts busted up by stray dogs that have jumped deer prematurely before our standers could get into position.
I would like to know what they are fishing or wishing for.
 
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Ldsoldier

Old Mossy Horns
....No way you can keep a dog from running a deer across your property....

You know, I hear this argument all the time. It's bologna. I've run deer with dogs my whole life. Killed my first deer in front of a couple of walkers. My uncle had some of the best deer dogs in Pender county east of 117. Good clubs can keep their dogs on their property if they want to. We did. It can be done. I know this because we did it. Yes, occasionally the new guy will miss them and they'll get across the road to the other tract, but in a good club that's not a common occurrence. People don't complain because it happens once in a while. They complain because it happens every week. If you want to keep them on your tract you can do it. If you can't do it you probably shouldn't be running hounds. I'll keep my opinions on this legislation to myself, but let's quit using the "dogs can't read posted signs" argument. Nobody buys it, and they never have.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
You know, I hear this argument all the time. It's bologna. I've run deer with dogs my whole life. Killed my first deer in front of a couple of walkers. My uncle had some of the best deer dogs in Pender county east of 117. Good clubs can keep their dogs on their property if they want to. We did. It can be done. I know this because we did it. Yes, occasionally the new guy will miss them and they'll get across the road to the other tract, but in a good club that's not a common occurrence. People don't complain because it happens once in a while. They complain because it happens every week. If you want to keep them on your tract you can do it. If you can't do it you probably shouldn't be running hounds. I'll keep my opinions on this legislation to myself, but let's quit using the "dogs can't read posted signs" argument. Nobody buys it, and they never have.

Nobody can have complete control of an animal, if you let it out of your hands. Just like the man who ask " Does that dog bite?" Reply " Well, it does have teeth and it's own brain."

I too can control my hounds very well. One getting out of the backside of a block or past a stander can happen. Just as you admitted, they can. That is why this bill is bad it makes it illegal for any occurrence of a dog getting by, no matter the reason or frequency, or lack of). LEO could give you a ticket whether or not you and your neighbor have a good relationship or not. I believe mutual respect is a must and goes a long way. This bill takes away the possibility of working together to have a positive relationship, that many of us here have worked hard at getting established.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Can't the same problems be assigned to folks running other animals with dogs?

So why single out deer hunters and not ,say, bear hunters?

Bear hunters have political clout?
 

RJ1

Ten Pointer
Because deer hunting is more visible than bear hunting,and alot of landowners will let bear doggers run their land when they will not let deer hunters do so and they also assuming that bear hunters will not use their political clout to go against this bill which is a mistake the way I see it if they coming after one form of dog hunting they will be coming after all forms of dog hunting down the road.I do think the deer dogging laws need to be tweaked a little but this bill doesn't do it.I also believe that like locks posted signs are for honest people if someone is breaking the law now they will continue to do so no matter what laws you have on the books.
 
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JDHowell

Ten Pointer
I know whats pushing this and where the money and reason is coming from, Myself and 2 others have done all the work. Not the Mclees.
 
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jug

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Nobody can have complete control of an animal, if you let it out of your hands. Just like the man who ask " Does that dog bite?" Reply " Well, it does have teeth and it's own brain."

I too can control my hounds very well. One getting out of the backside of a block or past a stander can happen. Just as you admitted, they can. That is why this bill is bad it makes it illegal for any occurrence of a dog getting by, no matter the reason or frequency, or lack of). LEO could give you a ticket whether or not you and your neighbor have a good relationship or not. I believe mutual respect is a must and goes a long way. This bill takes away the possibility of working together to have a positive relationship, that many of us here have worked hard at getting established.
Well said . This bill would allow me to call the game warden on my neighbor every time his black lab runs a deer off his 54 acre farm onto my 42 acres. Better yet will allow me to also call the game warden on my neighbors up in Rockingham county when their yard dogs run deer off their 150+ acre tract onto my 35 acres. A Ridiculous bill.
A man that pays taxes on that much property should be allowed to let his dog run. Might ruin my hunt every once in a while and yes I got pissed off but that's the way it is. This bill is bad all around. Most of the dog clubs do a good job of keeping their dogs up. Morgan, Whitley and Albemarle Club down in Scotland county do a good job. If they jump a big buck though...... them dogs are gone 90% of the time if he don't get killed by the standers.
Dog is going to go where his nose takes him PERIOD! He could care less about your posted signs.
I still say they are fishing but for what I do not know.
 
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Ldsoldier

Old Mossy Horns
Well said . This bill would allow me to call the game warden on my neighbor every time his black lab runs a deer off his 54 acre farm onto my 42 acres. Better yet will allow me to also call the game warden on my neighbors up in Rockingham county when their yard dogs run deer off their 150+ acre tract onto my 35 acres. A Ridiculous bill.
A man that pays taxes on that much property should be allowed to let his dog run. Might ruin my hunt every once in a while and yes I got pissed off but that's the way it is. This bill is bad all around. Most of the dog clubs do a good job of keeping their dogs up. Morgan, Whitley and Albemarle Club down in Scotland county do a good job. If they jump a big buck though...... them dogs are gone 90% of the time if he don't get killed by the standers.
Dog is going to go where his nose takes him PERIOD! He could care less about your posted signs.
I still say they are fishing but for what I do not know.

The key is that in good clubs it doesn't happen often. I don't support this bill, but I understand where it comes from. You talk about the good clubs, and they're out there. There's more bad ones than you care to admit, though. They're the reason for this bill.
 
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