Coyotes Are there really that many of them?

straightline

Ten Pointer
I must have the coyote jinx because I have never seen one while hunting in NC and have only got one on camera. This is on land in Harnett,Wake and Person counties.
 

Harpoon

Guest
CoyWolfs are killing machines....but also appears from studies to apply pressure which lowers the number of fawn births.

Additionally, they move around/hunt a wide territory.

Hunter numbers have been in decline in many states over years, and many don't even harvest a deer so hard to argue deer decline is from poaching/over harvest.

What's interesting is researchers in other areas are now looking at Bobcats on fawn mortality as well...could be a triple whammy with the disease outbreak.

Hello 700,000 deer herd......except for the down east five county buffet where the White Tail may become an endangered species before long.
 
I know this thread is old, but I have wondered the same thing.

I moved back here from AZ early 2016 and immediately got on the forums and Facebook groups and whatnot. Everybody is always talking about wasting coyotes like they are some kind of problem. "kill 'em all" they say. But I have seen very little sign of coyotes. Especially compared to the southwest where you could turn down any canal or dirt road and see the earth just POUNDED with tracks.
 

TravisLH

Old Mossy Horns
There are plenty, some areas hold more than others.... Saw 3 this season and killed 2 heres one of em
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JoeSam1975

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Well I'll throw in my 2 cents. I do think the "damage" is overrated. Hunters and growth cause more damage to deer numbers then any other single factor. Period. I live on the outskirts of metro charlotte in Union County. I do see lots of coyotes on my local honey hole lease of 120 acres. But honestly, my lease is now surrounded by single family homes. Homes that were not there 10 years ago. Those deer are gone or crammed into smaller areas. The coyotes seem to like living between the suburban and rural fringes. They eat dog food, garbage, household pets etc. Its ideal for them. Deer not so much.
Just this year alone I can see probably 300-500 acres that has been cleared for new homes. For me to think a D9 dozer hasnt run off more deer vs coyote predatotion in my area is ridiculous.
I like to keep reminding folks, that NC is now the 10th most populated state in the country. Soon to be #9, surpassing Michigan. 30 years of growth and scraping and clearing and houses and second houses etc. plus more effective hunters with range finders, inline muzzle loaders, compounds, crossbows, scent control etc is catching up to us.
You can't keep having liberal doe limits, plus poachers and cars and loss of habitat and then blame a population decrease on coyotes. I think they may be a factor, but only one small piece. Who can honestly say the area they call home in NC is twice as big as it was even 10-15 years ago. Charlotte, Raleigh, Wilmington, Winston. They growth has been torrid and unabated except for the 07 recession. Now that the land from 07 is built on, they are clearing land again.
Smartest post yet!! Couldn't agree more.
 

Boojum

Ten Pointer
There are plenty of coyotes. I have seen several and killed a couple while hunting this year, have several pics of them every time I check my trailcams, and I hear at least two separate packs howling in my valley pretty much every night.

Except that they aren't coyotes, per se. What we have in the east, according to all the DNA studies done so far, are not true coyotes, but coyote hybrids with a healthy dose of eastern timber wolf and red wolf DNA (usually about 25%-30%) and a touch of dog DNA (usually about 5%-10%.) They are a lot bigger than western yotes, tend to hunt in packs, and have color variations like wolves. Black "coyotes" are becoming really common, as well as big dark red ones with black backs. They are a new species, basically, that is still evolving to fill the niche left open when we killed out the wolves in the southeast. And from reading old writings by folks like William Bartram and John Lawson who traveled our area in the 1700s, what we have now is pretty close to what they had then. Many scientists think they should be classified as an entirely different species. They are highly adaptable, intelligent, and are pretty interesting critters.

As for hurting the deer population, there is no doubt that they kill deer. Not only fawns, but also adult deer. But:

In an area with a healthy deer population, they are not going to affect it that much, and may be beneficial. Predation is natural, and not a bad thing in most cases. The rise of QDM tv show-style hunting with people treating small bucks as sacred cows and killing large numbers of does for meat and to "balance the buck/doe ratios" has a much, much bigger impact on the deer population than the coyotes ever can or will. As does constant development and urban sprawl. Coyotes are not the boogeyman. We are.
 
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Rubline

Twelve Pointer
^ I think you are right, maybe hunters should rethink their management practices and continue to shoot coyotes every chance we get.
 

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I had a huge, fuzzy specimen across the road from my house a couple of hours ago, no rifle at the ready..dang it.
Pretty easy to spot in this thick snow.
 

Part-time hunter

Ten Pointer
I've seen plenty and heard even more while hunting deer and turkey on Butner/Falls game lands. I've also seen and heard plenty up at Lasttombstone's place. I used to see more behind my place in the city limits of Wilmington NC before the new development back there started getting full of houses and blocking their path to our neighborhood. There were actually a few deer back there when we first moved in ten years ago. I still see tracks and scat but I don't walk at night anymore so I haven't seen one here in a couple of years. Plus we have a couple of breeding pairs of red foxes back there who are doing fine eating small varmints, birds, squirrels, and the occasional small pet.
 

Zombie

Old Mossy Horns
Got plenty around here in walkertown.

Thinking about taking the electronic call and the 12ga with 00buck out tonight should be able to see pretty good with 8" of snow on the ground

Sent from.......wait....where am I?!
 

ncturkeyhunter

Guest
All of this talk about low deer numbers and overpopulation of coyotes got me thinking. Are there really as many coyotes out as we think? I have been hunting for 20 years. I have hunted in alleghany, Ashe, Alexander, buncombe, Catawba, Chatham, McDowell Granville Stokes Vance and Wilkes counties. I have been running trail cameras since 2003. On average I hunt 35 days a year, small game hunt another 10 days and spend another 30-40 scouting and working my leases. Not to mention all the time I spend camping and hiking. I keep extensive journals of my hunting experiences. In 20 years I have never seen a coyote while deer hunting. In fact, I have only seen 2 coyotes while engaged in a hunting activity. I did not get a coyote on trail camera until 2010. In total, I have less than 50 pictures of coyotes on camera. A lot of them showed up in Wilkes when we had our die off. They scavenged on the dead deer. I got 3 pictures of coyotes this year and the last one was in September. I have 12 trail cameras in the woods right now in 3 different counties. If coyotes are so abundant, then why are we not seeing more of them?

You said you killed two in Granville during muzzleloader season on the big field last year, in one sit.
 

grim reaper

Ten Pointer
I don't see them often or get pics over my corn but hear them almost every night and get a lot of pics of them when I set cameras over certain trails...No shortage of deer here as of now, knock on wood
 
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Mack in N.C.

Old Mossy Horns
Hmmm... according to those articles, bobcats, bears and uncontrolled doe harvest is just as big a problem, if not bigger, than coyotes.

I have always said and though I have seen no study or anything to prove it other than 45 years in the woods trapping and hunting is that I believe bobcats and bear take way more fawns than coyotes. a bear can get a fawn easily and a bobcat can take down an animal 7 times its weight so fiqure a normal bobcat weighs 20 lbs. so 20 x 7 =140.....if you believe thats high take 20 -30 lbs off of that and you can see that a bobcat has no problems with a fawn.
 

Greg

Old Mossy Horns
I don't see many, but off and on, I hear them from dusk to dawn. I used to hear them more than I do now. They would 'rotate through' every week or so. Much less now, maybe because there isn't as much food???

I'd trade yotes for my neighboring hunters. Those ***holes kill every deer they see.
.... and THIS ^
 

BarSinister

Old Mossy Horns
Just my opinion based on what I've seen.

The couple places I hunt are not in areas with many (hardly any) road kills. Every pile of scat is filled with deer hair. So I know they eat them. Like said earlier in the thread, and I didn't read all the posts, I think they target the fawns old or sick more than anything else. They also seem to be cyclical and it also seems like the deer populations go along with the cycles. A few years ago we would see them (yotes) running during the day on several occasions. During that time we had hardly any deer. FF to the past 2 years and we haven't seen the yotes (almost at all and scat discovery is down too) and we have a healthier population of deer. I'm sure other factors are involved in both populations fluctuating, but it is noticeable to me.
 

jim67

Eight Pointer
My opinion, (just my opinion) I agree coyotes are more in pockets, you either have them, gonna have them or don't. As far as the deer population, I believe unlimited doe tags, depremation (spelling) permits and a ridiculous long season in most areas have led to the impact of the deer herd in a lot of places. I have only seen 2 coyotes while hunting and only 2 or 3 on camera in several years, Stokes Co.
 

Crappie_Hunter

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
I don't see that many, but in the past few years and deer I've shot in bow season are found by the yotes before me. I'm talking 1-2 hrs max between shot and recovery... it amazes me


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30/06

Twelve Pointer
Exactly dstubbsunc. The question is will NCWRC listen to hunters and take some steps to help the herd? They can't control all those things but will they change what they can control?

This is the question I have. Some states manage deer like a resource, not a nuisance. It's a fact the deer population is down, it's also a fact yotes are here to stay. Will the state help manage the deer herd or is it by design we're seeing fewer deer. If I have to read one more article about hunters not seeing deer because of mast crop I'm going to puke.
 

2boyz

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Personal opinion: The impact of Coyotes will play a major role in whitetail deer management decisions in the SE US. 100% chance. PERIOD.

1. Research projects in Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, SC, NC have all show drastic impact on fawn recruitment.

http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/big-game-hunting/how-coyotes-affect-deer/

A recruitment ratio of 1 fawn / doe would be ideal in most situations (for deer management decisions). Coyotes are documented by research to have reduced this ratio to 0.7 or significantly less in some cases (.3).

2. Alabama: deer hunting has a $1,000,000,000 impact on the state's $1.8 Billion $$ hunting industry. That's BILLION. Alabama, Georgia and SC are in the second year of a very interesting project. Cost: $1 million.
http://onlineathens.com/sports-outdoors/2015-01-15/uga-deer-lab-partner-coyote-study

Alabama, Georgia, and SC deer managers are expressing concern.

3. In the Savannah River Study and the Ft Bragg work, coyote impact on fawn recruitment was significant. These two studies have been repeatedly noted by various interested parties to have areas of poor fawning habitat.

Personal opinion: Habitat will play a minimal role in coyote predation/fawn survival. The predator/prey ratio will ultimately be found to be roughly the same based strictly on the quality of habitat. For clarity, there will be more coyotes in areas with more deer and thus, more fawns being born. Speculation: The long fawning season, not habitat, will be a major factor impacting coyote predation in the SE US.

Look at it another way. How many rabbit hunters are there per square mile in marginal habitat (Ft Bragg) compared to ideal rabbit habitat in eastern NC? Coyotes have been shown to have tremendous home ranges and the tri-state work will possibly show this range to be consistently seasonal...i.e. they move to the food and places with the most fawns/ sq mile will get the most pressure.(Pressure as in the most coyotes/sq mile.)

4. Note that the SC reference (Charles Ruth - Savannah River) noted the lack of consistent impact of predator removal prior to fawning season (trapping).

5. DRS and NC Rabbit Hunter on this forum have noted the effectiveness of hounds to consistently kill coyotes. More on this when appropriate. I saw the same thing in Missouri....very effective when supplemented with firearms.

Thoughts:
1. NCWRC is being slow to address this issue.

2. EVERY research trial in the SE US completed since 2012 has shown significant impact of coyotes on fawn recruitment.

3. Hunting / shooting coyotes with hounds during the timeframe Jan 2 - March 31 could significantly impact coyote populations in a wide-spread geographic area. Techniques would need to be developed but the key is that a SPORT would develop which translates into more hunter recruitment/$$$$ into the economy. Until coyote hunting is a consistently exciting and productive sport, we will neither impact the coyote population nor will the state gain $$$$ by attracting hunters into this sport.

4. Trapping is incredibly effective. However, until we can consistently trap coyotes over blocks of dozens of square miles, trapping will have marginal impact on fawn predation due to the mobility of coyotes to the food sources.

POINT: If we do nothing, we will reach a point of equilibrium which will significantly impact the deer hunting experience that we have had in NC over the past 40+ years.
 
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huntngolf

Six Pointer
I agree with most of the posts on this about our herd and do think that our deer population will never be what it once was. Don't think this will be that bad of thing as our quality can become better as well. However we do need to address our season and bag limits. I went to a wildlife commission hearing several years back in Graham and one of the proposals was Sunday gun hunting. I spoke up about not being in favor of it and was about thrown out of the room by other hunters there. I even stated that with the comments that I heard was why do we need another day of gun season added to one of the longest seasons in the country if its that hard to get your limit. This was after the commission added a week to muzzleloader season. We need to attend these meetings and talk to WRC because it seemed to me with the meeting I attended that most people there wanted a year long season.
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
This is the question I have. Some states manage deer like a resource, not a nuisance. It's a fact the deer population is down, it's also a fact yotes are here to stay. Will the state help manage the deer herd or is it by design we're seeing fewer deer. If I have to read one more article about hunters not seeing deer because of mast crop I'm going to puke.

list the folks that consider the deer a nuisance and compare that to the length of the list that consider deer a resource.

best i can tell hunters are on the short list and everyone else (farmers, drivers, insurance cos,etc etc) wanted the deer gone and the goal was to killem all.

it was indeed by design that the herd be reduced.

two big wild cards: ehd and coyotes: did what we hunters could not.

time will tell if that is a positive.
 
I have being seeing fewer deer for the last 5 years , but nobody around me would agree because the 5 times they went hunting over a corn pile they saw 7 or 8 deer ..(I guess it is because of acorns.)
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
Personal opinion: The impact of Coyotes will play a major role in whitetail deer management decisions in the SE US. 100% chance. PERIOD.

1. Research projects in Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, SC, NC have all show drastic impact on fawn recruitment.

http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/big-game-hunting/how-coyotes-affect-deer/

A recruitment ratio of 1 fawn / doe would be ideal in most situations (for deer management decisions). Coyotes are documented by research to have reduced this ratio to 0.7 or significantly less in some cases (.3).

2. Alabama: deer hunting has a $1,000,000,000 impact on the state's $1.8 Billion $$ hunting industry. That's BILLION. Alabama, Georgia and SC are in the second year of a very interesting project. Cost: $1 million.
http://onlineathens.com/sports-outdoors/2015-01-15/uga-deer-lab-partner-coyote-study

Alabama, Georgia, and SC deer managers are expressing concern.

3. In the Savannah River Study and the Ft Bragg work, coyote impact on fawn recruitment was significant. These two studies have been repeatedly noted by various interested parties to have areas of poor fawning habitat.

Personal opinion: Habitat will play a minimal role in coyote predation/fawn survival. The predator/prey ratio will ultimately be found to be roughly the same based strictly on the quality of habitat. For clarity, there will be more coyotes in areas with more deer and thus, more fawns being born. Speculation: The long fawning season, not habitat, will be a major factor impacting coyote predation in the SE US.

Look at it another way. How many rabbit hunters are there per square mile in marginal habitat (Ft Bragg) compared to ideal rabbit habitat in eastern NC? Coyotes have been shown to have tremendous home ranges and the tri-state work will possibly show this range to be consistently seasonal...i.e. they move to the food and places with the most fawns/ sq mile will get the most pressure.(Pressure as in the most coyotes/sq mile.)

4. Note that the SC reference (Charles Ruth - Savannah River) noted the lack of consistent impact of predator removal prior to fawning season (trapping).

5. DRS and NC Rabbit Hunter on this forum have noted the effectiveness of hounds to consistently kill coyotes. More on this when appropriate. I saw the same thing in Missouri....very effective when supplemented with firearms.

Thoughts:
1. NCWRC is being slow to address this issue.

2. EVERY research trial in the SE US completed since 2012 has shown significant impact of coyotes on fawn recruitment.

3. Hunting / shooting coyotes with hounds during the timeframe Jan 2 - March 31 could significantly impact coyote populations in a wide-spread geographic area. Techniques would need to be developed but the key is that a SPORT would develop which translates into more hunter recruitment/$$$$ into the economy. Until coyote hunting is a consistently exciting and productive sport, we will neither impact the coyote population nor will the state gain $$$$ by attracting hunters into this sport.

4. Trapping is incredibly effective. However, until we can consistently trap coyotes over blocks of dozens of square miles, trapping will have marginal impact on fawn predation due to the mobility of coyotes to the food sources.

POINT: If we do nothing, we will reach a point of equilibrium which will significantly impact the deer hunting experience that we have had in NC over the past 40+ years.

how do we know that we have not already got to equilibrium. maybe the coyote population has peaked as well as the deer?

I dont know just asking.
 

Aaron H

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
In my part of Chatham County deer numbers are down- have been for 3 years but very noticable this year. I hunted about 60 afternoons and saw exactly 2 different fawns this season. Coyotes are taking most of the fawns- my opinion. The way a coyote hunts and travels results in random contact with young bedded fawns and with the heavy predation of fawns and hunters still killing many does our population is doomed to decline. This season I shot 1 buck and passed on all does. Next year the population will again be low here.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
With coyotes present we will have to rethink our doe harvest. Where I hunt we have as many bear and bobcats as we have always had, the new variable was coyotes. We adjusted our doe harvest and still had a sustainable harvest. EHD hit and the deer here are having a hard time recovering. IMO, if you have plenty of does the coyotes will have a less noticeable affect. If your on that fine line the coyotes can have a very noticeable affect. I try to kill every coyote I see while hunting, I see them mostly while running hounds and calling.

Most places I hunt I would rather a young buck be killed than a doe. I eat deer and I don't do it to save money, but rather that I don't spend more money on meats. Not to mention I do like to eat deer. I'm going to put meat in the freezer so I'm not against shooting young bucks. I will not shoot a doe off any property I hunt unless I see family groups of does of 5 or more, and then I will only take out the largest/oldest doe.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
This post was stated a little over 2 years ago and ask are they really that many yotes around?

I ask how many of y'all that got snow over the weekend used this as a chance to canvas the area for yote tracks? I did and I didn't have any problems finding that I have a yote problem. I walked on two different tracts miles apart, within 5 minutes on each I found multiple sets of tracks (some of the tracks different sizes) that appeared to be working cover where I found deer beds. I can't help but think these were packs of yotes targeting deer. I have seen yotes hunting deer, grown deer. Once I heard them when they caught the deer. Nope, I was not about to walk toward that sound in the dark.
 
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