Coyotes Are there really that many of them?

Zach's Grandpa

Old Mossy Horns
If coyotes are doing all this damage to the herd then how do other states that have as many or more coyotes still have a lot of deer?

Not being sarcastic just honestly looking for a answer.

Same question I've been asking/stating for years. I've hunted Tennessee for over twenty years, and hunted a lot when I lived there especially during turkey season. I have killed at least one coyote every year for all those years and not on purpose but just had the opportunity present itself while deer and turkey hunting. I've hunted N C all my life and this makes the eighth season since I moved back here that I've hunted a lot. Most of the hunting has been in Caswell and Orange Co. To date I have seen three coyotes while hunting and killed one of those.
 

dstubbsunc

Eight Pointer
It ain't just the coyotes, it's coyotes, dogs, hunters, cars, EHD, bobcats, foxes, depredation hunting, development, timber cutting, liberal limits, insurance companies, and bear are all combining factors that are finally taking a noticeable toll on the actual numbers or lack of deer sightings in NC and I'm guessing it'll get worse before it gets better!
 
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Zach's Grandpa

Old Mossy Horns
Exactly dstubbsunc. The question is will NCWRC listen to hunters and take some steps to help the herd? They can't control all those things but will they change what they can control?
 
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timber

Twelve Pointer
Think the NCWRC would probably do something if they see a real problem. But don't think they are going to react just because the inability of a few hunters to see deer. On this site some seeing plenty deer some not. The lack of seeing deer been blamed on everything from acorns to coyotes. There are areas in the state if you closed the deer season completely and killed every coyote you still wouldn't see huge herds of deer. The land wouldn't support them with enough food and cover.
 

nc rabbit hunter

Guest
I think the reason other states have deer and coyotes doing well togather is that they may not have a deer hunter on every acre! Just stop and think how populated NC has become and a lot of places every property has stands on it!! Even the large tracts have pressure. Im amazed to ride and see the amount of stands from the road that you see now!
 

Songdoghunter

Twelve Pointer
This subject has probably been addressed on this forum more than any other and I don't understand the lack of common sense reasoning. I respect all of the opinions expressed here but the claims that biologists say this, landowners say that, WRC says so and so etc., is simply not worthy of basing conclusions that coyote predation is a problem. It's like saying that Red Tailed Hawks are responsible for decimating the cottontail population. Coyotes eat deer and hawks eat rabbits. The end. I have repeatedly made this point: Texas, Oklahoma, Iowa etc. have had significant coyote populations since before anyone on this forum was born, yet the deer herd is alive and well in those states. Texas has more coyotes than NC will ever have and the 2014 deer population statistics state that the Hill Country alone has 2.1 million deer or a deer density of 113 deer per 1000 acres. Even east Texas has 18 deer per 1000 acres where deer hunting has never been as concentrated as south and west Texas. Overall, Texas has over 4 million deer and a statewide average of 39 deer per 1000 acres. These numbers have fluctuated with drought years, CWD, screw worms, and other diseases we haven't had here, and coyotes to top it off! To add insult to injury, Texas has much more hunting pressure than we do to the tune of 1.8 billion dollars in hunting revenue last year alone.

So yes, our deer population IS down, but for a compilation of reasons, the least of which is coyotes.
 

Zach's Grandpa

Old Mossy Horns
Throw Tennessee in that mix Songdoghunter. Yet the limits on deer in middle Tn is three does per day from late Sept to Jan. As has been stated it's a combination of several factors and granted it doesn't affect the entire state equally. I've said this before, and no personal reference or disrespect to anyone, but based on experience of having lived and hunted in other states as well as traveled to a lot of states to hunt. NCWRC is not as active as others in managing wildlife. I have no idea why and point no fingers at anyone, just stating what I have seen for years.
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
when hunters are as powerful as insurance companies, farmer and landowners you might get a listen on "helping" the deer.

Until then (which aint happening)understand that the only people that think the reduction in deer is a problem are hunters.

everyone else that has been lobbying to kill them all for decades are happy happy happy.
 

mekanizm

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Coyotes live and die by the edge of their senses. Their nose is unbelievable, they have excellent hearing and their sight is good. IMO, they have no problem interacting with humans because their 'radar' easily keeps us located in a zone that is almost always beyond our line of sight. I believe that while coyotes observe us quite frequently, they are most comfortable keeping us beyond their sight but well within their nose and hearing. I further believe that coyotes are quite comfortable and very relaxed when they have us located in their "zone" and stealthily interact with us almost continuously during their activities with little fear.

They did that GPS study out west about bears and humans recently and found the bears were following the humans. I suspect that if that was done on all the coyotes and all the humans in a given area the results would be very, very startling to most folks.
 
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Frostcat

Twelve Pointer
I know SD and I have debated this many times before. I don't think the coyotes will have the impact down east that I have seen here in the mountains as a lot has to do with the habitat. The decline I have seen here had other things that contributed to it also, like the over harvest of does, illegal hunting, EHD, less logging in the national forests, etc. Then throw in coyotes and you have the perfect storm.

I saw the first coyote here in Haywood County in 1985 and this is what I have observed. From 1977 to 1990, the reported kill in Haywood County was over 150 most years, peaking in 1990 at 317. By 2004, it was only 58. I live surrounded by the Pisgah National Forest and spend considerable time year-round in the woods. The first thing that I noticed was mature does with no fawns and coyote scat year-round full of deer hair. Deer disappearing, even in remote areas that saw light hunting. Seeing coyotes chasing deer and where they had been chased in the snow. Deer hair where deer had been killed. Reports from other hunters of coming upon coyotes with a mature doe down with her guts torn out, being eaten alive. The deer harvest was going down each year and hunters were seeing fewer deer. The NCWRC would not admit that there was a problem. They kept telling hunters that the deer were overpopulated. Finally, after intense pressure by sportsman's groups, they stopped doe hunts in part of the county. After the 1997 season, there were only 81 deer reported killed. Over the past few years, I have seen the deer begin to come back as they have adapted to the coyotes. You find deer in much thicker and rougher places than before. When the coyotes first showed up, deer here had no large predators and were easy pickings. I believe coyotes have an impact on deer numbers and in some areas a very big impact. Trappers and hunters have been taking good numbers of coyotes the last several years. I think this, along with the deer adapting, have helped the deer numbers to come up. The reported kill in 2013 was 161. You can think what you want about it, but I know what I have personally seen in my area.
 
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Greg

Old Mossy Horns
Exactly dstubbsunc. The question is will NCWRC listen to hunters and take some steps to help the herd? They can't control all those things but will they change what they can control?
I agree. I don't think the NCWRC is interested or capable of effectively managing the situation. They don't have the manpower, funding, or inclination to do so.

I also think more folks are seeing what some of us have been seeing for 8 or more years now.
 
where I live and hunt coyote numbers are up(based on sightings tracks, droppings, and trail cam pics) and deer numbers are down(based on same info).not all based on my personal experience but mine combined with seemingly everyone I talk to hunters and non hunters, even local shrubbery farmers and they hate deer. we did have the ole infamous ehd a few years ago, and that's when deer began decline. so I believe that the coyotes did not decimate the deer population, but if the herd is way down form disease how are they supposed to rebound if a large percentage of fawns are killed every year. not just by coyotes, but coyotes, bobcats, natural cause death, bears (apparently are healthy populations levels as regulations relaxed and now allowed to stand hunt over bait), cars etc etc. yes some survive, but coyotes kill a lot of fawns, it is indisputable fact. many many experienced educated wildlife biologists all agree that coyotes are detrimental to fawn crop. in my opinion they are way more experienced and educated on the matter than most of us on here myself included. are coyotes singlehanded reason for deer decline. no. are they a key player yes. so what can we hunters do to improve deer herds. simple control the things we can control. we can improve deer habitat on our private lands that we can alter, we can provide cover for them, (hinge cutting etc) we can provide more food resources, food plots, plant fruit trees, supplemental feeding of corn and apples(may not be the best option but gives them something to eat), fertilize your and maintain your existing food, oaks, muscidines persimmons etc. and lastly we can control the predator population, we can kill a coyote when we see it, we can trap bobcats, coyotes. and lets not forget foxes(not legal to trap in Caldwell county). and raccoons that's right raccoons theres documentation that a large male raccoon can and will kill a fawn. and theres another predator lurking in the dark, that will kill a lot of deer, us. we can control us. simple be more discriminate about the deer we kill. I don't want the deer herd to improve so I can kill more deer. I want to see more deer, I want to kill more quality deer. I want the kids I take hunting to see more deer in a sit so they want to stay involved in hunting, kids don't want to sit for hours and stare at trees they want to see wildlife. I also love hearing beagles chase rabbits who are also on the decline(uh oh im blaming coyotes again) as for me im working on improving deer quantity and quality where I hunt with habitat improvement and predator trapping is a really large, but not sole part of my management plan.
 

Songdoghunter

Twelve Pointer
where I live and hunt coyote numbers are up(based on sightings tracks, droppings, and trail cam pics) and deer numbers are down(based on same info).not all based on my personal experience but mine combined with seemingly everyone I talk to hunters and non hunters, even local shrubbery farmers and they hate deer. we did have the ole infamous ehd a few years ago, and that's when deer began decline. so I believe that the coyotes did not decimate the deer population, but if the herd is way down form disease how are they supposed to rebound if a large percentage of fawns are killed every year. not just by coyotes, but coyotes, bobcats, natural cause death, bears (apparently are healthy populations levels as regulations relaxed and now allowed to stand hunt over bait), cars etc etc. yes some survive, but coyotes kill a lot of fawns, it is indisputable fact. many many experienced educated wildlife biologists all agree that coyotes are detrimental to fawn crop. in my opinion they are way more experienced and educated on the matter than most of us on here myself included. are coyotes singlehanded reason for deer decline. no. are they a key player yes. so what can we hunters do to improve deer herds. simple control the things we can control. we can improve deer habitat on our private lands that we can alter, we can provide cover for them, (hinge cutting etc) we can provide more food resources, food plots, plant fruit trees, supplemental feeding of corn and apples(may not be the best option but gives them something to eat), fertilize your and maintain your existing food, oaks, muscidines persimmons etc. and lastly we can control the predator population, we can kill a coyote when we see it, we can trap bobcats, coyotes. and lets not forget foxes(not legal to trap in Caldwell county). and raccoons that's right raccoons theres documentation that a large male raccoon can and will kill a fawn. and theres another predator lurking in the dark, that will kill a lot of deer, us. we can control us. simple be more discriminate about the deer we kill. I don't want the deer herd to improve so I can kill more deer. I want to see more deer, I want to kill more quality deer. I want the kids I take hunting to see more deer in a sit so they want to stay involved in hunting, kids don't want to sit for hours and stare at trees they want to see wildlife. I also love hearing beagles chase rabbits who are also on the decline(uh oh im blaming coyotes again) as for me im working on improving deer quantity and quality where I hunt with habitat improvement and predator trapping is a really large, but not sole part of my management plan.

I agree with some of your point but want to point out one thing about "professionals" such as wildlife biologists. A great big bunch of them make ambiguous statements and comments that are based on research. However, it ain't their research and the extent of their knowledge is what they were told at a 4 year college if they remembered correctly what their professor told them the day after they spent all night throwing up beer and pizza! You can't be a successful heart surgeon if you have not practiced your trade. Many biologists are nothing more than authors who compile data from real biologists who work in the field everyday and then publish their statistics.

One additional thing I want to point out about biologists and deer hair: I was told by one who is nationally known that it is virtually impossible to distinguish between deer, meadow vole, and rabbit hair in coyote scat with the naked eye. It has to be tested to make a positive ID.
 

Buxndiverdux

Old Mossy Horns
I saw 2 yotes yesterday. One in morning and one in evening. Times like those make me wish I carried a rifle on my deer hunts..
 

nc rabbit hunter

Guest
I agree with some of your point but want to point out one thing about "professionals" such as wildlife biologists. A great big bunch of them make ambiguous statements and comments that are based on research. However, it ain't their research and the extent of their knowledge is what they were told at a 4 year college if they remembered correctly what their professor told them the day after they spent all night throwing up beer and pizza! You can't be a successful heart surgeon if you have not practiced your trade. Many biologists are nothing more than authors who compile data from real biologists who work in the field everyday and then publish their statistics.

One additional thing I want to point out about biologists and deer hair: I was told by one who is nationally known that it is virtually impossible to distinguish between deer, meadow vole, and rabbit hair in coyote scat with the naked eye. It has to be tested to make a positive ID.

I hunted with a wildlife biologist for several years,he wasn't very impressive when it came to real world knowledge of wildlife.
 

Briargoat

Ten Pointer
^you show me a man who claims to be an expert on something, Ill show you a man with his head up his own keester
 

Songdoghunter

Twelve Pointer
Some interesting study results'

Two years ago a study began in Bath and Rockingham counties to see if predators are having a big impact on the decline of the deer population in the area. It started with a question about coyotes impacting the deer population, but at this point researchers are finding that other animals, such as bear and bobcat, are also having an impact.
Researchers are genetically analyzing scat samples to find out which animals are eating deer. Marcella Kelly is working on the study. She’s an Associate Professor in the Fish Wildlife and Conservation Biology Department at Virginia Tech.
“We’re pretty good at identifying the species, with the exception of there’s a lot of confusion in the field between identifying bobcat and coyote samples so those two are commonly misidentified,” says Kelly. “So it’s really important to do the genetic IDs. We are finding remains of deer in all three species, in black bear, coyote and bobcat. But I think that was pretty interesting for us, that we were finding especially deer remains in black bear. We know that bears will eat dear, but I guess we were surprised that that was a prevalent diet item and also the same for bobcats. We’ve got a suite of predators, I guess, that are impacting deer species.”
Another part of this study is research on the movements of coyotes in the area. GPS collars have been placed on coyotes in order to track them.
“We’re finding coyotes have pretty big home ranges and they can make really large movements, but it really varies across the animals,” says Kelly. “Right now we have seven or eight that still have GPS collars on and some of those have been on for over a year now, so that’s great. And they really vary. Some stay in one location and center their activity around that one location, have kind of a smaller type home range. And then others make very large movements, kind of following the ridge lines, up and down those ridges and have really kind of long linear home ranges. And then occasionally they seem make these massive movements, say into West Virginia for a little while, and then come back. Not totally sure what they’re doing. We haven’t really analyzed that in terms of what habitat types the animals are covering, but that’s up and coming for this next year.”
So far over 1,000 scat samples have been analyzed. The analysis not only identifies species, but can even identify individual animals within a species. Kelly says with the genetic data they will be able to estimate the number of coyotes, bobcats and bears in the area and see which of the three predators is having the most impact on deer.
“We’ve done an enormous amount of field work on this project and have lots of volunteers that have helped us collect scat samples,” says Kelly. “It just takes awhile to get all that genetic data analyzed. And then the exciting part will probably be really starting next summer once the field work is sort of finished by the end of next summer. Then we can really crank out some of the analysis and answer some of the questions, like how many coyotes do we think there really are, what is their average home range size, things like that, that we’re really looking forward to. As well as the analysis for the diet study should be complete hopefully by the end of 2013.”
The Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries, The Nature Conservancy and the US Forest Service are helping to support this study. Kelly says a final report will be done in January of next year.

HOT SPRINGS, VA (WVMR) - There is a study underway to see if coyotes may be contributing to the decline of the deer population in Bath County. Virginia Tech (Virginia Polytechnic Institute & State University) researchers are conducting the study, which also includes Rockingham County, to discover approximately how many coyotes there are in the area, where they are and what they are eating.

Marcella Kelly is an Associate Professor at Virginia Tech in the Fisheries and Wildlife Conservation Department.

"I think something that is pretty interesting is that a lot of the scat samples that we picked up when we did the genetic analysis, a large majority of them turned out to be bobcat and not coyotes," says Kelly. "And even a handful turned out to be bears. So it's made us rethink, for one thing, how many bobcats might be out there. Even though it was a coyote study, we are now realizing that we may need to start examining bobcats as well."

This study started three years ago. Scat samples that were collected were analyzed in a DNA lab. That analysis identified the species and even individual animals within a species. From this information predator population numbers can be estimated and diet analysis can reveal which predators are having the most impact on deer. Kelly says that deer remains have been found in samples from bears, bobcats and coyotes.

"Well, I think it's like anytime that you start a new project, it sort of seems like you end up at the end with more questions than you started out with," says Kelly. "Which I always think is great. So now we are really wondering about this combination of predators. So maybe it's not just the coyotes, but maybe what if it's the combination of bears, bobcats, coyotes on deer. Maybe that combination is tough on them, especially if they're in habitat that's not as good as it used to be in the past."

The study may also show that changes in the forest might be contributing to the decline of the deer population. Thicker forests have developed in the area over time, but deer prefer more open spaces.

And another part of this study involves tracking the movement of coyotes in the area.

"We captured and collared about nineteen coyotes," says Kelly. "And some of them have small, kind of tight, home ranges where they seem to stay in one place. And some of them move over very large distances. They seem to follow kind of the ridge and valley topography. And then other times they seem to expand and contract and expand and contract on almost like a biweekly type basis or something like that. And so it's pretty interesting how variable they are. And so that is kind of what we're in the process of trying to make sense of right now."

The Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries, The Nature Conservancy and the US Forest Service are supporting this study.

"We do know that coyotes are now dominant on the landscape," says Kelly. "And we are getting deer in their scat samples. We still suffer from the problem in that we can't tell if those deer are scavenged or hunted. We do know that coyotes will hunt deer. But it's one thing to find deer in the scat samples and know that they've actually killed that animal versus during hunting season whether they're just scavenging off of human killed deer carcasses. So there's a limitation in our study and so we still want to point that out."

The final report from this study should be ready in May of next year.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
Trail cams don't lie. Find a den or a well used know coyote trail. I didn't see the pics but I have no reason to doubt the results. One set on a den 13 out of 14 days with a pics of a coyote with a fawn. One on a fence crossing 24 fawns fell to coyotes in 30 days. I have seen pics of coyotes with fawns on here. Research I have read also used DNA to sort out the predators with coyotes being the most, then bobcats and some bear.
 

Larry R

Old Mossy Horns
I don't claim to be an expert but I assure you that I can tell the difference in deer versus vole or rabbit (fur) hair in coyote scat. And I don't need any scientific instruments to do so. If a biologist isn't any more proficient than that then I damn sure "ain't" gonna put a lot of my faith in that biologist.
 

Buckshot1

Twelve Pointer
Songdog every pile of yote crap on our leases downeast are nothing but deer hair.

That could be as much from dumping carcasses. Check the piles during the offseason. In my area of Anson the scat piles during the off season appear to be mostly rabbit and other small rodents. We hear yote regularly every evening. Get plenty of pics of the same pack that works one of our properties and shoot one every chance we get.

I have extensive trail cam pics if the same doe with the same two button bucks from frail spotted weaklings to now feeding
And using the same food plot daily, the yotes are right there as well often only few
Minutes seperate their visits. Yet i have witnessed the doe and BBs making a hasty exit the minute the yotes crank up. You can doubt whether it's the same doe and yearlings but I know better as I know my properties as well as I know My home. I know they are denned up close and intend to locate that den as soon as season expires.

My point is I don't doubt yotes do harm to our deer herd, I just doubt it's as bad as most of us would Like to believe. Deer have learned to adapt to yotes as they have learned to adapt to the many places they live . Personally I myself have had a slow season, but I do not believe that coyotes nor EHD are the cause.

I think that our area has had a gradual correction in the balance of our herd thru doe management and harvest. That for us happened by the direct result of taking does instead of immature bucks. For decades as our club as a brown and down club, also a dog club, would most years take 60-80 deer off our leases. No regard for antlers size, buck, doe, BB it didn't matter, it was fair game. A big buck was a once a season event.

Now some 7-8 years of management we take 7-10 mature bucks each season off 1100 acres. Along with about 15-20 does each season. Our neighbors practice the same brand of management even are more selective to what they take. We believe our system works and that is all that matters to us.
 
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Clayton Yankee

Guest
You guys are really giving coyotes way to much credit. Im originally from Indiana which has been labeled "Coyote Country" since the 70s. True they will take fawns and weak/sick deer but no way are they responsible for declining deer populations. With all the long gun seasons and so many hunters here shooting every and any deer they see its only a matter of time an abundant herd size can be depleted. Add in the EHD and thats the reason . Indiana doesnt allow rifle hunting and that alone will greatly account for the amount of deer being able to be harvested. To each his own on what they want to shoot and how many they want to shoot. But to come here and blame coyotes for greedy hunting practices is a joke. If you have a sweet little fishing pond and you dont practice "catch and release" of course you will fish it out. I from my personal observations was blown away by so many down here having no concern about taking so many deer. No one to blame but yourselves or those hunting around you.
 

chrisj0616

Guest
You guys are really giving coyotes way to much credit. Im originally from Indiana which has been labeled "Coyote Country" since the 70s. True they will take fawns and weak/sick deer but no way are they responsible for declining deer populations. With all the long gun seasons and so many hunters here shooting every and any deer they see its only a matter of time an abundant herd size can be depleted. Add in the EHD and thats the reason . Indiana doesnt allow rifle hunting and that alone will greatly account for the amount of deer being able to be harvested. To each his own on what they want to shoot and how many they want to shoot. But to come here and blame coyotes for greedy hunting practices is a joke. If you have a sweet little fishing pond and you dont practice "catch and release" of course you will fish it out. I from my personal observations was blown away by so many down here having no concern about taking so many deer. No one to blame but yourselves or those hunting around you.
What part of Indiana? I have family in Fort Wayne and Decatur and a few other places
 

Clayton Yankee

Guest
What part of Indiana? I have family in Fort Wayne and Decatur and a few other places

Porter County, actually just got home from there last night. Didnt hunt but checked a few stands. Jumped a few does, sure wish the deer here were that big. I know where both Ft. Wayne and Decatur are. Decatur is big deer land.......
 

Stillhunter

Four Pointer
Was talking with one of the bear hunters yesterday. Told him I saw two yotes chasing a deer yesterday. He mentioned that someone had a camera on a yotes den during the spring and the female brought 36 fawns to the den over a 4 week span. Hopefully he can send me some pics to verify this. I have no reason not to doubt them.


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Deerman

Four Pointer
Dont think NC has a problem with coyotes this is how many where reported to the NC Wildlife commission.. this is what is reported how many arent:The Wildlife Resources Commission has promoted trapping and hunting in recent years to reduce coyote attacks on livestock and pets. Across the state, hunters killed 27,000 coyotes last year. Wonder why you arent seeing more deer....... they eat fawns and turkeys little ones as fast as they can...

Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/11...-hunting-controls-approved.html#storylink=cpy
 

bigjim

Guest
Shot 2 while deer hunting a few years ago, never seen another one, no pic. of them either
 

bflee

Guest
Where I am in Duplin County, I see Bobcats everywhere. I have a hill between my house and the swamp in the woods and I believe it is their regular restroom. They use the same places all the time.
I have shot one coyote since 2006. Never saw any more tracks and no pictures on two cameras. I have pictures of everything else back there on my 31 acres. I have shot more bobcat than you can imagine. They kill everything around. I have found everything in their scat. They are probably eating the coyotes around here! I have the great goshen swamp back there so you would think I would see some.


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