What % of Toms is ok to harvest out of the population?

hawglips

Old Mossy Horns
“This Turkey Tuesday is about a question often asked by turkey hunters - what percentage of the population of toms should we harvest? This is a complicated question, and one where “it depends” often will be the answer one gets. Recommendation back in the 1990s (2nd pic), which have been used in the years since, suggested that as long as we harvest 30% or less of the toms in a population, spring harvest should be sustainable. But there’s much to understand when considering those recommendations, which at the time, were based on the best research available. One, production (poults per hen) was more than double what is being observed across many parts of turkey range. You can clearly see this in the ratio of juvenile to adult hens in populations back then – more juveniles than adults, whereas we see far fewer juveniles than adults in many populations today. Two, these recommendations were made based on scenarios where spring harvest rate was maintained constant at 15% - ongoing research on many sites throughout the country shows that in a given year, harvest rates of toms far exceed 15% and may be >40%. Three, these recommendations were made based on the assumption that spring seasons would open when most breeding was completed (peaks in nest incubation), so as not to disrupt breeding. This 3rd point is why many states have made recent regulation changes altering season opening dates, given the recognition that timing of harvest matters. The take home is, the percentage of toms to harvest each year hinges on annual production in years prior, and likely varies dramatically across the landscape as production fluctuates through time – in other words, there isn’t a single % that applies broadly, which is why agencies continue to grapple with trying to ensure harvest is sustainable. The question becomes, since we’re not producing turkeys like we were in the 1980s and 1990s, doesn’t it stand to reason that we can’t harvest turkeys based on recommendations when times were so different?”

(Chamberlain)
 

Winnie 70

Ten Pointer
Knowing how many gobblers you are seeing on properties you are hunting…especially the weeks leading up to opener…is the best indicator of how many should be killed. If I am constantly seeing 3 or 4 gobblers in the fields leading up to the opener I will only kill 1 bird off that track. Now if more are seen I will kill 2. But the rub comes is how many are being killed by others hunting close by your track…how many gun shots are you hearing each trip….so it is a guessing game when this is taking place. Not seeing many poults leads to less gobblers and that is what most of us are dealing with.
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
"It just depends " is the answer for any turkey hunting question.
How much should you call?
Which decoy should you use,?
Which choke should I buy?
Guess it works for any turkey MGT question as well. 🤷‍♂️
In the mean time dont issue the tags if you dont want them used.
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
in the words of a "highly qualified Supreme Court Nominee" (wait while I stop laughing,,,,,,)

I am not a biologist


I don't have any tracts of land that I have the authority or moxy to control how many people kill how many birds,,, I just do my thing and one day if population drops enough it will become like today's upland bird hunting, folks will drop out and I'll have the woods and fields to myself,,, or it'll become like it was when I started turkey hunting,,, where you have to apply for a permit and hope you get one every couple of years,,,

I am curious though - is anyone addressing their concerns with the NCWRC and if so, what have they said?
 

hoyt85

Six Pointer
Hard for me to see birds on most of the dirt I hunt until they're usually inside of gun range or close to being there. So gauging how many may or may not be around visually is slightly more difficult for me personally. If I have a tag, my job is to find one and kill him. So, I have no way of knowing how many were there or how many have been removed before I arrived. So, were there 10 within ear shot before opening day and when I showed up two weeks later and only heard one and killed him, did I do more harm than good? In that scenario I'd say I did. However, if the state gives me a tag, my main goal is to fill that tag. Whether that be a right or wrong mindset is up for debate I suppose, The simple answer is if you don't want me there, don't give me a tag or anyone else for that matter.

The simpler version of that scenario and how they seem to be going about combatting the topic at hand is what we're seeing now with reduced limits and or days taken away or pushed back. If you can see thousands of acres with open ground and smaller woodlots it's much easier to have a better handle on what is or isn't there. In heavily wooded areas covering thousands of acres it's much more difficult, obviously. The only way to get a grasp on that is by how many you "hear" gobbler. Even that is misleading because no two days are the same. You could hunt an area for two mornings and never hear a peep, kill one that finally gobbles once around 3 pm on the second day, only to stop back by the next morning and hear four. So, from the first and second mornings observations you'd say there weren't any turkeys around and none needed to be removed. From the third mornings observation you may conclude that two could possibly be removed. After day three it was concluded there were a total of 5 in the "area", but basing it solely off of the first morning, there would have been zero.

Many states are trying to do a better job at gathering harvest data to get a better "handle" on the true number of just how many turkeys inhabit the landscape. However, in in today's world, much of it is still a crap shoot.

Tennessee dodged a bullet IMO by not not taking days away, they just adjusted the time frame and reduced the limits. Did nothing for the use of decoys on private, only public. The adjustment in season dates without taking away opportunity in days allowed to hunt keeps the crying down. But who really wants, or thinks hunting Tennessee up until Memorial day is a good idea or would even want to. Personally, I do not, but that's just me. I mean, this past year temps were mid 90's that last week.

Something I've never understood is why more states, specifically Southeastern states, don't have more "zones" and why seasons dates don't reflect that in terms of elevation. There's a big difference in South Alabama compared to Northern Alabama, much like there's a big difference form North Carolina's coastal plain to the mountains. The same could be said for numerous states. I've just never thought a "blanket" approach was the best way but I understand it combats overcrowding in certain areas and reduces the amount of hunters who would "flock" to an area that was open.

I laughably told a buddy the other day while we were discussing a few things that we outta just open up the entire country from April 1 to May 31 with a two bird limit and just be done with it.
 

hawglips

Old Mossy Horns
In NC, if I understand it correctly, the new research is pretty much verifying there is no real east to west differential as far as breeding timing is concerned. I'm happy to see all the real research going on to help clarify and answer some key questions. I am not a biologist, but I'm enjoying all the data and commentary on it. The research is going to help answer questions like what % of toms should be killed, which will help states make more educated regulations to help make sure turkeys are around to hunt for the long term.
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
NC took a look at this from as different metric- Gobbler harvest per sq. mile of habitat.
Pg 90 takes a gander at that and show harvest by sq mile by county for the study period mentioned.
This whole report is interesting to those with an interest in NC wild turkey mgt. history.
PG. 82 foreshadows our future. I
Complete list of restoration sites included- Historical hunter pressure by county- really some neat info.

 

lasttombstone

Kinder, Gentler LTS
I may be premature but just started reading the plan and one of the first things that jumped out at me was Figure 1 map on page 21. Obviously, there were plenty of turkeys in Granille Co. north of Falls, as well as Caswell, Person, Rockingham, Orange and Guilford, as they had no release sites listed.
 

lasttombstone

Kinder, Gentler LTS
"continuing habitat loss consequential to the rapidly increasing human population in this state will begin taking its toll on wild turkey numbers. How long that process takes will depend on how well the state manages its rapidly increasing human population and the associated development and how well the Commission manages this magnificent game bird."

This about sums it up for me. We are on of the leading "come on down" states in the country and the increased population growth is going to be a major factor in the demise of a lot of stuff. "How well the state manages it's rapidly increasing popuation" is a joke statement. There is no management.
 

hawglips

Old Mossy Horns
"continuing habitat loss consequential to the rapidly increasing human population in this state will begin taking its toll on wild turkey numbers. How long that process takes will depend on how well the state manages its rapidly increasing human population and the associated development and how well the Commission manages this magnificent game bird."

This about sums it up for me. We are on of the leading "come on down" states in the country and the increased population growth is going to be a major factor in the demise of a lot of stuff. "How well the state manages it's rapidly increasing popuation" is a joke statement. There is no management.
I'm hoping the momentum of the research efforts will lead to some management efforts...
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
The last management "efforts " I remember was the week long youth season.
past that they have been pretty much staus quoa- the two main studies being the gobbling frequency and the current hen tracking study that wraps up this summer.
As for root cause "decline" work in areas west of the coastal boom- nothing. They have foreshadowed a decline for years but since it has lagged other surrounding states they havent had to address it. Micro declines probably arent manageable anyway.
With this wonderful brood weather we have had this spring and the bumper crop everyone says we had last year we should be gold for another period of years. They can just focus on CWD.
 
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