Smokeless ML question

Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
Ok guys... Before I just sell it or shoot BP in it..... Question

After a bunch of reading over the year I jumped.
Sent off my SS, TC Encore 45-70 barrel to have the guy in VA put a Savage plug in it.
I have had fun at the range with it. It shoots great. The problem is, have found it is very temperature and weather sensitive.
At the bench on the correct day it will hit 3 and make one big hole.
Leave it loaded long or in some weather the powder just will not burn the same.
I'm about to give up on it.
Tried a few powders, it is fun to shoot, shoots good. Just can't make it shoot when I want to.
One reason I did it was reading many people were using 3031 I have 8 lbs I was not using. Also tried 4895.
It shoots great, just not when I need it to. Did not want to do a duplex load.
What gives? It is clean, the plug is clean and clear. The screw in vent screw is clean.
Do I need to drill out the screw some?

It is not always easy but was doing it based on already having the barrel, powder, bullets..... All I needed was the plug and have the guy install it.

So before I sell it what should I try. Really do not want to do a duplex.
If I do then I only want to try with powder I know and own.
Its that or just go back to black powder and drill the vent screw out some. But I already have a 209-50 in the shop that I'm not using.

What say you?
 

Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
Guess I was looking an easy fix before I ditch it. .
Had this thought in the back of my head telling me to shoot it supressed this year. Be kind of cool to do it one time.
Not sure what is needed to shoot BP using one of the converted 45/70 barrels and savage breach plug. My guess is to open up the vent screw some.
 

Scrub

Six Pointer
I went smokeless last year no comparison far superior. I went with an Arrowhead barrel for my encore.
 

justhunt

Six Pointer
Contributor
I switched to smokeless 7 or 8 years ago and have converted all my buddies to smokeless. I own or have owned several myself and have dealt with just about any configuration of factory and custom smokeless MLS out there.

Our go to powder is H4198. For our break guns like your TC we run 60gr with either a 40cal 200gr SST with a blue harvester sabot or a 250 Parker ballistic extreme that are sized down to fit our barrels. We run the Parkers sabotless and use a veggie wad between the bullet and the powder. I’ve ran these loads in TC Encore and Omegas, H&Rs, CVA Apex’s and Scout V2 conversions all with great consistency and accuracy.

Between these 2 loads, the Parkers are more consistent and accurate but not by much. A sizing die is pretty pricey but they are worth it in the long run to be able to shoot sabotless.

We’ve used this load on Nebraska mule deer hunts during sub 0 days with no fail to fires, so duplexing isn’t necessary for ignition.


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Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
Thanks
I have sizing dies. Guy makes them for me cheap.
He does them for all my BP stuff.
He made me a bunch of custom dies, rods, jags, and guides.
Used a pin gauge to get the barrel size then he builds the die based on that.
Let me look into that powder.
What size vent hole you running?

My guess that the problem is primers or vent hole maybe both. The distance from primmer and vent is long with the savage plug.
 

justhunt

Six Pointer
Contributor
Thanks
I have sizing dies. Guy makes them for me cheap.
He does them for all my BP stuff.
He made me a bunch of custom dies, rods, jags, and guides.
Used a pin gauge to get the barrel size then he builds the die based on that.
Let me look into that powder.
What size vent hole you running?

My guess that the problem is primers or vent hole maybe both. The distance from primmer and vent is long with the savage plug.
Most everything I use has a Arrowhead plug with a .030 bushing in it but several of my buddies are running standard factory Savage plugs with factory vent liners that are .0305 I think.

As far as primers, there is only one 209 that I will use and it’s the Federal 209As. They can be a little tight fitting in my Rem Brux 45 but they seem to give a more consistent ignition as far as my chrono readings.


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Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
Most everything I use has a Arrowhead plug with a .030 bushing in it but several of my buddies are running standard factory Savage plugs with factory vent liners that are .0305 I think.

As far as primers, there is only one 209 that I will use and it’s the Federal 209As. They can be a little tight fitting in my Rem Brux 45 but they seem to give a more consistent ignition as far as my chrono readings.


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Cool.
I have tried several brands of 209. Even Alcans I have.along with Federal, winchester, CCI and some import stuff.
Not seen any difference, they work one time not the next. I will.make sure to use the Federal 209A next time to make sure.
 

brownisdown

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
For sabotless loads you need to shoot 58-60 grains of 4198 and use at least a 250 grain bullet sized so that it loads firm but not two hand barely get it down firm. 275 grain bullets from fury, arrowhead or pittman are even better. Use federal 209 primers. If you have a vent liner savage plug its worth the upgrade to get a bushing style plug from arrowhead sporting goods but i shot plenty of loads out of the vent liners they just need replacing every 20 shots or so.

Is you are trying to shoot the light 200 sst or barnes 195 you can use the same load but you probably need to nurl them up with a file so that they load real tight. Pittman and fury have heavy 40 cal options now in bullets that work well in the harvester lite blue sabot also. Another option is a straight load of imr 4759 if you have some or can find it at around 35-39 grains.

3031 and 4895 in a 45 cal needs heavy bullets like the 300-325 grain offerings to fire reliably.



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Mr.Gadget

Old Mossy Horns
I was guessing that from the last time we talked about it.
Not enough bullet to get the burn. Also not tight enough. When we were talking about using a file to roll them on to make it tighter, just been worried about getting it stuck.
Thanks for your help.
When you were first helping me on this I was shooting saboted rounds and like I said one range trip was fine, the other trip only part worked .
I shifter to the other bullet no sabot and it was about the same. Still had some not burning like they should.

Guess I need to carry all my gear, scale and tools to the range and see if I cant get it to shoot like it should.

Were you also telling me about using a file on some of the sabots to make them build better pressure?

Again thanks.
I know you are really into this stuff. I just have not had the time to get it right.
Still remember you giving me some bullets to try.
 

Scrub

Six Pointer
I was guessing that from the last time we talked about it.
Not enough bullet to get the burn. Also not tight enough. When we were talking about using a file to roll them on to make it tighter, just been worried about getting it stuck.
Thanks for your help.
When you were first helping me on this I was shooting saboted rounds and like I said one range trip was fine, the other trip only part worked .
I shifter to the other bullet no sabot and it was about the same. Still had some not burning like they should.

Guess I need to carry all my gear, scale and tools to the range and see if I cant get it to shoot like it should.

Were you also telling me about using a file on some of the sabots to make them build better pressure?

Again thanks.
I know you are really into this stuff. I just have not had the time to get it right.
Still remember you giving me some bullets to try.
my bad I didn't realize your barrel was a modified 45/70 I was assuming it was a Savage barrel. My neighbor shoots a savage smokeless so I was just going off that.
 

Packfan

Six Pointer
4198 is your friend. 60grains with a 250-275 gr sabot-less bullet in a hinger is a fine combo. Temperature swings don’t seem to be an issue that i have seen with 4198 as i shoot the same recipe in July as I do in November with virtually no difference in performance. I just picked up a fresh can the other day. I use it my bolt gun as well; just a little bit more.
 

Billy

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
The following works for me in my Encore 45/70 Conversion, Savage Pacnor 45, and Remington 700ML Pacnor 45.
H4198 (60grs in the Encore, 62grs in the other 2)
Fed 209A
Light Blue Harvester Sabots
200gr SST or 195gr Parker (no knurling)
Never tried duplex and don't plan to.
Haven't tried sabotless because I like the lighter 40 caliber bullets.
 

153

Six Pointer
I have three SMLs. One Savage and two Remingtons, all wearing .45 Pac Nor barrels. I shoot 35 grains of VV N-110 under a saboted 200SST or a 195 Barnes for my son and 10 gr N-110/45gr H4198 duplex under a Parker 275 for me. Have left loaded all ML season and still no misfires. The duplex might not be needed, I just do it for peace of mind. I have shot straight 4198 and never had a misfire. All shooting Fed 209A primers. I do place a piece of tape over the end of my barrel after loading. Prevents rain from entering barrel but mostly for SAFETY to keep from double loading. The tape does not effect POI out to 300 yards. I would not go back to black powder or 209-50, to much cleaning. I have friends who used the 209 and forgot to clean at the end of the season and now has pitted barrel.
Also all three SMLs shoot better than smaller than 1" groups at 100 yards. Never could get that with black powder, 209 or a stock Savage .50 SML.
 
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