Regarding Free College Tuition

25contender

Twelve Pointer
I can tell you this much. My parents and my wife's parents didn't have much money. If we wanted to go to college we were told to do good get a scholarship or get a job to pay for it. We both went to college and paid for it ourselves. My wife and her sister continued on and eventually getting their Doctorate while working full time as they did for their masters. I can say that if it was free it wouldn't mean as much as it does since we paid for it ourselves. I think as we have gotten older kids are starting to expect things for free get a trophy for everything and don't realize that someone in this world has to pay for those things one way or the other. My suggestion is to start a college savings account for your kids as it also has tax benefits. Put a little away and you would be amazed if done right how much will be available when your kids are ready for college.
 

sky hawk

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
That's not true. You're associating the job openings to the degree earned and that's not the case for a lot of people. What you need to be associating is the job openings to the available workforce. These employers aren't necessarily hiring people because they have degrees, they're just interviewing a workforce that has the highest ratio of degree holders in American history and thus the end product is that more job openings are being filled by more people with degrees.

We're already getting to the point where the average degree is becoming less valuable to some beginning trade jobs because of a) how much time is required, b) how much it costs to pay back and c) the available job openings in said career field. Since 2000, the growth in the wage gap between high school and college graduates has slowed considerably to now where 25 percent of college graduates earn no more than the average high school graduate.
Exactly. Education inflation. Your degree doesn't command the salary it once did, and employers end up with overeducated candidates for the position. Primarily because our younger generations have been duped/lied to/sold the idea that everyone needs a college education, and the government will give you subsidized loans to pay for it that you can pay back later once you're making bank with that 4 year sociology degree.

I understand what your saying. I just think people are equating paying for their degree and working for their degree as the same thing. Giving a college your money does not get you a degree.
I don't recall anyone saying no one would have to go to class. You keep defending an attack that hasn't been made. What we are saying is that to give away free tuition WE the taxpayer have to work to pay for it. You don't get something for nothing. Either you work for it, or someone works to give it to you, whether that's your parents or the taxpayers by force. I'm not a fan of the latter.
 
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wcjones

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
I'm dismissing it because tour example is an extreme outlier. Go compare the average income of people with advanced degrees and just a high school diploma. See what you find.
I know what I will find. But in the same category as my father who only has a HS diploma you will also find folks who don’t have any motivation and who have no interest in making a better life for themselves and might have the means but not the will to advance themselves not only in education but also career wise. I have known plenty of folks who are happy as a lark being told what to do and have no desire to take on more responsibility(which usually comes with higher salary)

You at least have to have some motivation to get through college. There is only one college I know of that just hands out degrees :).

That alone could count for the income differential but no one wants to talk about that, they only wanna shove the higher education narrative down your throat.

The degree alone doesn’t make or break the person.
 

MJ74

Old Mossy Horns
I do agree a Degree helps. I see people all the time in positions they have no business in but the fact they had a Degree helped them land a job.
I also see people with no more than a high school diploma making 100k a year.



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ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
Exactly. Education inflation. Your degree doesn't command the salary it once did, and employers end up with overeducated candidates for the position. Primarily because our younger generations have been duped/lied to/sold the idea that everyone needs a college education, and the government will give you subsidized loans to pay for it that you can pay back later once you're making bank with that 4 year sociology degree.



I don't recall anyone saying no one would have to go to class. You keep defending an attack that hasn't been made. What we are saying is that to give away free tuition WE the taxpayer have to work to pay for it. You don't get something for nothing. Either you work for it, or someone works to give it to you, whether that's your parents or the taxpayers by force. I'm not a fan of the latter.
People keep repeatedly saying that people should have to earn their degree. By paying for it...
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
I know what I will find. But in the same category as my father who only has a HS diploma you will also find folks who don’t have any motivation and who have no interest in making a better life for themselves and might have the means but not the will to advance themselves not only in education but also career wise. I have known plenty of folks who are happy as a lark being told what to do and have no desire to take on more responsibility(which usually comes with higher salary)

You at least have to have some motivation to get through college. There is only one college I know of that just hands out degrees :).

That alone could count for the income differential but no one wants to talk about that, they only wanna shove the higher education narrative down your throat.

The degree alone doesn’t make or break the person.
I'll agree that UNCheat sucks.
 

bwfarms

Six Pointer
You hate wasteful spending but want the government to hand out 3000 to everyone? My idea is just an incentive. Im not trying to make anyone go to college.
The $3000 I speak of is money that you keep instead of paying into taxes. Not a handout if you keep your hands on it.

People keep repeatedly saying that people should have to earn their degree. By paying for it...
You just don't get that concept do you?
 

sky hawk

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
People keep repeatedly saying that people should have to earn their degree. By paying for it...
...because the rest of us earned our degrees... by paying for them! I know it's a shocking concept, but it is a part of the process. We earned it by doing the school work, AND we earned it by paying tuition and all of the other associated costs.

A degree takes time, money and a lot of hard work. That's what makes it valuable.

Of course the opposition would counter that with something like, "You didn't build that!"
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
...because the rest of us earned our degrees... by paying for them! I know it's a shocking concept, but it is a part of the process. We earned it by doing the school work, AND we earned it by paying tuition and all of the other associated costs.

A degree takes time, money and a lot of hard work. That's what makes it valuable.

Of course the opposition would counter that with something like, "You didn't build that!"
So someone who's parents paid for it didn't earn theirs?
 

DC-DXT

Ten Pointer
I do agree a Degree helps. I see people all the time in positions they have no business in but the fact they had a Degree helped them land a job.
I also see people with no more than a high school diploma making 100k a year.

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I know plenty of people with just a high school diploma that easily earn $80-100k+ per year. Now some of that is due to OT, but they tell me that OT helps pay college tuition, hunting/fishing supplies, boats, Christmas, etc. I have a friend with a high school diploma and he was earning almost $350k per year at one time.
 

sky hawk

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
So someone who's parents paid for it didn't earn theirs?
Someone has to sacrifice for that degree. Not just the sacrifice to achieve the requirements but also for the privilege to try. Some have family who sacrifice. Some have to do it themselves. Others would rather take from the paychecks of their fellow citizens for that opportunity.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
Someone has to sacrifice for that degree. Not just the sacrifice to achieve the requirements but also for the privilege to try. Some have family who sacrifice. Some have to do it themselves. Others would rather take from the paychecks of their fellow citizens for that opportunity.
But you said paying for your degree is part of earning it. Which is it?
 

bigten

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Guys, you have fed the troll enough. There appears to be no way to communicate with common sense logic, as nothing said is taken at any common sense value. Just let it die. This is a no sum gain conversation. I saw early on it would be this way, so stayed an observer. There are times, and people, that just must be written off as as unreachable moment. This is one. Carry on if you wish, but I recommend we not continue this nonsense...
 

sky hawk

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
You seem to be stuck on the word "earning". The degree must be paid for by someone. I thought I was quite clear. Some have to earn the money to pay for the privilege of obtaining the degree. Others are helped out by their family. Those who receive help still earn their degree. But they were afforded that opportunity by the sacrifice of someone in their family. Not by government mandated wealth redistribution.

Based on your last post, I guess bigten is right.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
You seem to be stuck on the word "earning". The degree must be paid for by someone. I thought I was quite clear. Some have to earn the money to pay for the privilege of obtaining the degree. Others are helped out by their family. Those who receive help still earn their degree. But they were afforded that opportunity by the sacrifice of someone in their family. Not by government mandated wealth redistribution.

Based on your last post, I guess bigten is right.
"we earned it by paying tuition and all of the other associated costs"

You were quite clear when you said part of earning your degree was paying for it.
 
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FITZH2O

Ten Pointer
If roughly 41% of the population has a college degree (associate or more) and if 90% of new jobs require a degree of some sort, are you to tell me that we are looking at massive amounts of unemployment in the future?

Do these jobs truly need a degree or is it just a requirement placed by another degree’d type because he has been convinced that only people with degrees are intelligent?

If we make the associates degree a de facto K-14 diploma will employers just raise the bar?

Do 9/10 jobs really need a degree or is it just a requirement for application?

Do we really need to pay for anyone and everyone’s college or do we need to refocus our K-12 system to fit modern society/ technology?


I ask these questions for several reasons:
I believe there has been a concerted effort by the education system to overinflate the value of college IOT make them money.

I believe that effort has led to employers seeking college grads when truthfully they only need people that can get the job done and could determine that with a pre-employment test.

As far as paying for it goes, I don’t see it happening without costing me anything. The “education” lottery has been spent on education so that the normal funds can be diverted elsewhere, meaning you’ll have to pop a titty out of someone’s mouth somewhere. I don’t buy into the idea that an increase in education leads to an increase in tax revenue, which leads to benefiting me. The damned politicians will just find more people to pander to IOT secure their votes. Sounds like the only ones that will benefit are businesses, why not have them pay for it? I am an apprentice lineman, do you know who pays for my apprenticeship? The National Electrical Contractors Association and the IBEW. If I flunk out, drop out, or get fired I am required to pay back the cost. When I complete the training, I am required to work for NECA contractors for the next 3 years. They win by providing me with a good education that helps me to be a safe, effective worker and I win by learning a career while getting paid. Why wouldn’t these companies want the same thing? So far, everything I have heard involves tax payer money in one way or another, why not get the employers more involved? After all, apparently they are the ones demanding higher education...
 

DBCooper

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
People keep repeatedly saying that people should have to earn their degree. By paying for it...
If someone says something you want clarified - or want them to expand on - quote them, directly.

That straw man shit’s getting old.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer

dobber

Ten Pointer
So now its no to free school for a degree and instead become an apprentice where you work while training, the company pays for the education vs the tax payer
And no i didn't read the articles, on my own searches that i chose not to post, but relevant, i found you can make $25 - $40 an hour being a barista, and there is a a college that offers the course, dang google
 
So now its no to free school for a degree and instead become an apprentice where you work while training, the company pays for the education vs the tax payer
And no i didn't read the articles, on my own searches that i chose not to post, but relevant, i found you can make $25 - $40 an hour being a barista, and there is a a college that offers the course, dang google
$25-$40 for a barista? I think you got bamboozled.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
So now its no to free school for a degree and instead become an apprentice where you work while training, the company pays for the education vs the tax payer
And no i didn't read the articles, on my own searches that i chose not to post, but relevant, i found you can make $25 - $40 an hour being a barista, and there is a a college that offers the course, dang google
I still think the free associates is a good idea. I do however agree that too many people are pushed to 4 year degrees. I also think the cost of a 4 year degree is to high. These are all separate issues.
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
in a way, this trhead reminds me of theMinimum Wage Debates,,,,,we need to raise minimum wage cause you can't make a living on minimum wage, etc

sadly, McDonalds was a huge proponent of that,,,now go into most McDonalds and whatdo you see,,,,kiosks

ouch

what does thathave to do witth this trhead,,,merely shows that one needs to look deeper than the field good platitudes of "give them the money for a two year degree and they will furthermore be off the govt teat",,,,,or words to that affect

but what are the second and third order affects of such a move...may have aleady posted some highly likely ones,,
 
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