Regarding Free College Tuition

FireDuck401

Eight Pointer
Contributor
ECU Pirate I admire your tenacity.
I don’t believe in much you’ve posted but you seem passionate.

I believe in working for what you want.
My wife came from a family that could have sent her to college and footed the bill. She did not want to financially burden them though and worked her tail off throughout high school. She received a full ride academic scholarship to a state university. The caveat was she was required to work for the state i her field for four years, within a certain timeframe post graduation.

She didn’t have to work for that scholarship, she could’ve taken the easier route and had her parents pay for school.
She was raised that working for something makes it more satisfactory when it comes to fruition.
I believe that is a lacking in today’s world. Far too many believe we are owed something for nothing.

When we address that issue, perhaps some of the other issues will resolve themselves.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
ECU Pirate I admire your tenacity.
I don’t believe in much you’ve posted but you seem passionate.

I believe in working for what you want.
My wife came from a family that could have sent her to college and footed the bill. She did not want to financially burden them though and worked her tail off throughout high school. She received a full ride academic scholarship to a state university. The caveat was she was required to work for the state i her field for four years, within a certain timeframe post graduation.

She didn’t have to work for that scholarship, she could’ve taken the easier route and had her parents pay for school.
She was raised that working for something makes it more satisfactory when it comes to fruition.
I believe that is a lacking in today’s world. Far too many believe we are owed something for nothing.

When we address that issue, perhaps some of the other issues will resolve themselves.
I understand what your saying. I just think people are equating paying for their degree and working for their degree as the same thing. Giving a college your money does not get you a degree. Getting a scholarship does not get you a degree. You have to work for that degree and earn it. Money does not play a role in that aspect.
 

Crappie_Hunter

Ten Pointer
Contributor
If a kid drops out, flunks out, what happens to the money paid for them? I see a huge amount of waste with a program like this.
 

FireDuck401

Eight Pointer
Contributor
I understand what your saying. I just think people are equating paying for their degree and working for their degree as the same thing. Giving a college your money does not get you a degree. Getting a scholarship does not get you a degree. You have to work for that degree and earn it. Money does not play a role in that aspect.
Yes, I won’t argue that money is sole factor for earning a degree.
But, money does in fact play a role. Money is required to go to college, from somewhere.

There are scholarships every year that aren’t even applied for. We haven’t even depleted the money available now; I can’t see throwing more money as the solution.


ETA: I see you noted money doesn’t play a role in the aspect of earning the degree. I suppose that’s true. But in order to be in a position to earn the degree, it must be paid for.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
If a kid drops out, flunks out, what happens to the money paid for them? I see a huge amount of waste with a program like this.
Any program like this will have waste. Like i said above, I think it would have more benefit overall than waste.

Havent looked into it but i think about 3 other states already do this. Maybe you could look to see how they account for what you said, if they do at all. It would be interesting to know.
 

bwfarms

Six Pointer
I have explained that free tuition does not equal being handed a degree. I cant understand it for you.

I just didnt think it was a better way to accomplish what my idea is trying to accomplish. If you like that idea thats fine, i didnt. If you dont think more people being educated and working helps us all i dont know what to tell you.
Nobody said it was being handed to them. It's still not free.

You've weaved, bobbed, and back pedaled. You were preaching helping people but you only want to help a select few, not an entire population. Your words show this. You are for a system that penalizes others. At the same time you are saying that welfare recipients are not responsible enough to manage their money, that the government needs to control their finances.

How in the world is it not a better way to go, 'Hey here's $3000, go figure out how to invest in yourself'? Let people make their own mistakes.

I don't know what's hard to understand about $3000 cash kept in your pocket and the liberty to spend it as one sees fit. In a 40 year work career that is $120,000. One could earn interest on it at 1% for 40 years and it increases to $152,592.30.

Or one could go to school.

Or one could apply it to a mortgage.

Or one could start a business.

Or one could put it in high risk markets.

Do you know what I could do with an extra $3000 a year? Make more money so I can pay more taxes.
 

alt1001

Old Mossy Horns
Not only does that article NOT disprove the studies I sourced, it gives them validation.

Your study never said that 9 out of 10 new jobs requires a 4 year degree, it only states that 9 out of 10 new jobs are being filled by people who have 4 year degrees. When you factor in the under-employment rate for 4 year degree holders is currently 17%, twice what is was 12 years ago, that tells us that the job market is simply becoming over-saturated with 4 year degree holders. When the job market becomes over-saturated with degree holders, that results in college graduates having to take jobs that either never required a degree to begin with or taking jobs outside of their majors, just as the studies I linked concluded. There's your 9 out of 10.
 

Homebrewale

Old Mossy Horns
Let's get real here. The median household income in NC in 2017 was $50,320. To pay $3000 in state income tax, you would need $57,143 in taxable income. Giving every family $3000 to do as they please would mean more than half of NC households would pay zero in tax.
 

bwfarms

Six Pointer
Any program like this will have waste. Like i said above, I think it would have more benefit overall than waste.

Havent looked into it but i think about 3 other states already do this. Maybe you could look to see how they account for what you said, if they do at all. It would be interesting to know.
47% drop out rate from community college is a pretty substantial waste. Only a 57% graduation rate after 6 years. My cows waste far less hay, I would rather spend the money to feed them.
 

MJ74

Old Mossy Horns
Let's get real here. The median household income in NC in 2017 was $50,320. To pay $3000 in state income tax, you would need $57,143 in taxable income. Giving every family $3000 to do as they please would mean more than half of NC households would pay zero in tax.
If I'm not mistaken (since he didn't answer my question) I believe the lottery was used to fund the program in Tennessee.


Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
Nobody said it was being handed to them. It's still not free.

You've weaved, bobbed, and back pedaled. You were preaching helping people but you only want to help a select few, not an entire population. Your words show this. You are for a system that penalizes others. At the same time you are saying that welfare recipients are not responsible enough to manage their money, that the government needs to control their finances.

How in the world is it not a better way to go, 'Hey here's $3000, go figure out how to invest in yourself'? Let people make their own mistakes.

I don't know what's hard to understand about $3000 cash kept in your pocket and the liberty to spend it as one sees fit. In a 40 year work career that is $120,000. One could earn interest on it at 1% for 40 years and it increases to $152,592.30.

Or one could go to school.

Or one could apply it to a mortgage.

Or one could start a business.

Or one could put it in high risk markets.

Do you know what I could do with an extra $3000 a year? Make more money so I can pay more taxes.
Im all for making it free to everyone. Thats what Tennessee did and it worked. Was just trying to come up with a compromise as some people up here hate anything that is given to people.

You hate wasteful spending but want the government to hand out 3000 to everyone? My idea is just an incentive. Im not trying to make anyone go to college.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
Not only does that article NOT disprove the studies I sourced, it gives them validation.

Your study never said that 9 out of 10 new jobs requires a 4 year degree, it only states that 9 out of 10 new jobs are being filled by people who have 4 year degrees. When you factor in the under-employment rate for 4 year degree holders is currently 17%, twice what is was 12 years ago, that tells us that the job market is simply becoming over-saturated with 4 year degree holders. When the job market becomes over-saturated with degree holders, that results in college graduates having to take jobs that either never required a degree to begin with or taking jobs outside of their majors, just as the studies I linked concluded. There's your 9 out of 10.
Either way you slice it you still cant get a job without a college degree. My proposal is for 2 year degrees, not 4.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
Also, sorry if i dont answer every ones questions. Im a one man band here trying to keep up 20 different conversations.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
After looking around and doing some research the biggest reasons most studies pointed to for people dropping out of both 4 year and 2 year colleges are cost and being academically unprepared. Cost was typically listed as the number one reason.
 

DBCooper

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
47% drop out rate from community college is a pretty substantial waste. Only a 57% graduation rate after 6 years. My cows waste far less hay, I would rather spend the money to feed them.
Just curious as to whether this rate includes transfers??
 

alt1001

Old Mossy Horns
Either way you slice it you still cant get a job without a college degree.
That's not true. You're associating the job openings to the degree earned and that's not the case for a lot of people. What you need to be associating is the job openings to the available workforce. These employers aren't necessarily hiring people because they have degrees, they're just interviewing a workforce that has the highest ratio of degree holders in American history and thus the end product is that more job openings are being filled by more people with degrees.

We're already getting to the point where the average degree is becoming less valuable to some beginning trade jobs because of a) how much time is required, b) how much it costs to pay back and c) the available job openings in said career field. Since 2000, the growth in the wage gap between high school and college graduates has slowed considerably to now where 25 percent of college graduates earn no more than the average high school graduate.
 

wcjones

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Yes, your better off. I know plenty of teachers who did what i talked about for the reasons i stated.
How so? If it costs more to live in an area then the supplement doesn’t go near as far.

My wife works in a rural county with an average supplement of 2k a year

Charlotte is 2 counties over with an average supplement of 7k a year.

Since I have friends that live in Mecklenburg I know that they pay close to 100k more for similar housing. Cause ya know location,location location.

Then they have higher taxes

Then for some reason the food costs more in the grocery store.

Then the costs for services like daycares is higher

So that 5k difference in salary doesn’t make near the difference you think it does.

Even if you live outside the city and commute you still have the mileage and time

So just cause you know people who have done it doesn’t make it the smartest financial move. Hell I know folks who have put off buying a house because they wanted a brand new 4wd truck and couldn’t afford to do both.
 

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
That's not true. You're associating the job openings to the degree earned and that's not the case for a lot of people. What you need to be associating is the job openings to the available workforce. These employers aren't necessarily hiring people because they have degrees, they're just interviewing a workforce that has the highest ratio of degree holders in American history and thus the end product is that more job openings are being filled by more people with degrees.

We're already getting to the point where the average degree is becoming less valuable to some beginning trade jobs because of a) how much time is required, b) how much it costs to pay back and c) the available job openings in said career field. Since 2000, the growth in the wage gap between high school and college graduates has slowed considerably to now where 25 percent of college graduates earn no more than the average high school graduate.
And I would be willing to wager that the ratio drops even closer between 2 and 4 year degrees. Higher education degrees will mean much more than a 4 year degree but still don't guarantee a 100k job by any means.
 

wcjones

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Either way you slice it you still cant get a job without a college degree. My proposal is for 2 year degrees, not 4.
How so? I have a mom with a PhD and a father with a high school diploma and last I checked they both made about the same amount of money. Now they both make well above average but there isn’t a huge gap between them.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
How so? If it costs more to live in an area then the supplement doesn’t go near as far.

My wife works in a rural county with an average supplement of 2k a year

Charlotte is 2 counties over with an average supplement of 7k a year.

Since I have friends that live in Mecklenburg I know that they pay close to 100k more for similar housing. Cause ya know location,location location.

Then they have higher taxes

Then for some reason the food costs more in the grocery store.

Then the costs for services like daycares is higher

So that 5k difference in salary doesn’t make near the difference you think it does.

Even if you live outside the city and commute you still have the mileage and time

So just cause you know people who have done it doesn’t make it the smartest financial move. Hell I know folks who have put off buying a house because they wanted a brand new 4wd truck and couldn’t afford to do both.
Plenty of counties besides Mecklenburg that have decent supplements compared to many others.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
How so? I have a mom with a PhD and a father with a high school diploma and last I checked they both made about the same amount of money. Now they both make well above average but there isn’t a huge gap between them.
If 9 out of 10 jobs go to those with college degrees it doesnt matter why that is. It still means having a college degree helps. Dont know how your mom and dads income have anything to do with that.
 

wcjones

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
If 9 out of 10 jobs go to those with college degrees it doesnt matter why that is. It still means having a college degree helps. Dont know how your mom and dads income have anything to do with that.
Your whole point in this thread is to argue earning potential for someone with vs without a college degree.

I have given you a real world example of the two extremes ie with just hs diploma and with a Doctorate and how the incomes can very easily be the same but yet you dismiss it and say it has nothing to do with it.

The only reason you are dismissing it is because it doesn’t agree with the narrative you are trying to push.

That is pretty closed minded.
 

wcjones

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Plenty of counties besides Mecklenburg that have decent supplements compared to many others.
So you are dismissing another real world example in a vague way. I see how this is going. This is not a debate but a way for you to virtue signal.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
So you are dismissing another real world example in a vague way. I see how this is going. This is not a debate but a way for you to virtue signal.
You dismissed my real world example by providing your own... We both know people who chose different options and the reasons for it. See how providing subjective experiences doesn't really help? That's why I keep asking for more concrete evidence.
 

alt1001

Old Mossy Horns
If 9 out of 10 jobs go to those with college degrees it doesnt matter why that is. It still means having a college degree helps.
In 10 years you might see 10 of 10 new hires that are being filled by folks with degrees. That includes the biscuit maker at your closest Bojangles because the ratio of degree holders with his major to jobs available in his major are 20:1.

Employers aren't seeking degree holders any more than the fact that degree holders are becoming more readily available to them hence why the under-employment rate is skyrocketing. That's not a coincidence. You can also see a large bubble building in that there is currently $1.7 trillion in student loan debt nationwide and not enough jobs paying at a certain salary range to pay them back.
 

DBCooper

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
In 10 years you might see 10 of 10 new hires that are being filled by folks with degrees. That includes the biscuit maker at your closest Bojangles because the ratio of degree holders with his major to jobs available in his major are 20:1.

Employers aren't seeking degree holders any more than the fact that degree holders are becoming more readily available to them hence why the under-employment rate is skyrocketing. That's not a coincidence. You can also see a large bubble building in that there is currently $1.7 trillion in student loan debt nationwide and not enough jobs paying at a certain salary range to pay them back.
It doesn’t take much of a filter to weed out the Lesbian dance theory and ethnic & civilization studies degree holders.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
Your whole point in this thread is to argue earning potential for someone with vs without a college degree.

I have given you a real world example of the two extremes ie with just hs diploma and with a Doctorate and how the incomes can very easily be the same but yet you dismiss it and say it has nothing to do with it.

The only reason you are dismissing it is because it doesn’t agree with the narrative you are trying to push.

That is pretty closed minded.
I'm dismissing it because tour example is an extreme outlier. Go compare the average income of people with advanced degrees and just a high school diploma. See what you find.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
In 10 years you might see 10 of 10 new hires that are being filled by folks with degrees. That includes the biscuit maker at your closest Bojangles because the ratio of degree holders with his major to jobs available in his major are 20:1.

Employers aren't seeking degree holders any more than the fact that degree holders are becoming more readily available to them hence why the under-employment rate is skyrocketing. That's not a coincidence. You can also see a large bubble building in that there is currently $1.7 trillion in student loan debt nationwide and not enough jobs paying at a certain salary range to pay them back.
And I'm not advocating that everyone should go to college and get a degree. I've said before I think vocational and trade jobs should be pushed more as options for students. Not just college or bust. I'm proposing that an associate degree free for those who want to pursue one.
 
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