Sticky "Red Wolf" restoration scandal

bigten

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Was just trying to speed up the process for myself. Guess I'll have to do some reading.
There are so many angles to this fiasco, it cannot be explained in a paragraph or two. So much that has already been hashed out and explained to start all over for one persons benefit of time savings. It will be a long read since you have not been included or followed the conversation that has been going on for a significant amount of time. You do not understand yet the problems this has caused for many people, but IF you will take the time to read this thread from the beginning, you will have a complete understanding of why so many are against this program.
 

stiab

Ten Pointer
Contributor
Guess I'll have to do some reading.
Seems like a huge task, but will be worth it if you really want to be informed on this subject. I was relatively late to this thread, and came with an open mind, but read all of it and have been amazed and disappointed at what our government and certain 'environment groups' have been willing to do. Follow the money.
 

Take 'em

Six Pointer
ECU, nothing wrong with having a different opinion or even reaching a different conclusion, but it should be from knowledge based on facts.

As I stated earlier to Ron. Coyotes are almost impossible to eliminate once they enter an area even with legal trapping seasons, 365 days a year hunting and 24 hrs. a day and they still thrive. This modern red wolf takes all kinds of intensive care, medical treatment, protections, no hunting and had 132 released illegally and still can't survive. They either lost something in the dna or they just didn't have what it took to adapt. We now have an Apex predator in the coyote that is here to stay, so we really don't need another one. Remember the whole reason for trapping them from the wild was to remove them from the coyotes they were hybridizing with in Texas and La. So here is not the place for establishing a wild population any longer.
 

corapeake

Eight Pointer
Corapeake, a few answers:
  1. your premise is wrong, the red wolf program wasn't a flop - the population hit a high of 150 red wolves in the wild, and then people starting shooting them, with little defense or intervention offered by USFWS when it mattered most. The wolves showed they could survive if they were left alone, so the challenge as I see it is rebuilding the tolerance that existed before, despite ruthless and false PR attacks by people who want them gone from NC. There also simply needs to be more land conserved for the benefit of the wolf.
  2. there already are 200 red wolves in captivity, with plans to increase that number some over the next few years. However, the ESA mandates recovery in the wild, for good reason, as that is where the red wolves belong.
  3. The available evidence indicates that it was a red wolf (or close relative) that lived in North Carolina. All of the remaining native species in this state evolved in the presence of one or more canid predators, and there is no reason to think the wolf or the coyote is going to cause widespread ecological disaster. Deer and wild turkey can take care of themselves against wolves and coyotes, it was human hunters that nearly drove these game species extinct.
  4. I know various people on this forum use the phrase "super-coyote", but it seems like a poor choice of terms. Wolf-coyote hybrids don't fly, they aren't bullet-proof, they eat some combination of the same sort of things that wolves and coyotes eat. Wolf coyote hybrids likely breed slower and later than coyotes, and they are likely less resilient to human hunting pressure than coyotes (wolves are a lot easier to kill). Wolves and wolf-coyote hybrids are larger, and have larger territories, which means that less of them will pack into a given area, which means less zig-zagging canids hunting down fawns in the springtime.
Lol, you may fool some with your propaganda but I've done my homework. I've followed this thread since the beginning and read all the citations and your premises are false. Honestly, your failure to grasp reality is comical.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
From what i have found 400 were captured in Texas/Louisiana. 43 of those were sent to be a breeding facility. Of those 43 only 14 were found to be pure red wolf. That is what they started the program with.
Phenotype, what they thought was a red wolf. DNA, genotype, shows otherwise. Could the "red wolf" always been a hybrid? Maybe. However, if that is the case they are not endangered in any way(not even as a NEP on gov't property). They are all over the Southeast and East Coast, thus affording no special protection.
 
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GSOHunter

Twelve Pointer
Contributor

Seems to say the red wolf looks distinct but they can’t confirm without comparing against historic Red Wolf DNA....
 

Buxndiverdux

Old Mossy Horns
Coyotes will willingly breed with this so called woof. There is no real debate here. Both sides of the woof crowd seem to be comfortable with this theory. I wonder why that is? Could it be that they are the same thing? Bobcats and mountain lions are somewhat similar, but they do not reproduce. Anyone know if the Lynx and a Bobcat cross breed? What about black bear and grizzly bear? Or the dove and the pigeon? All similar creatures, yet they do not typically cross breed. And I have seen no studies to indicate that interbreeding is a threat to any species elimination.

We all know different "pure" bred dog breeds(classifications by man) will willingly take up with other breeds. We've all seen it, and accept it.

The gray wolf hates a coyote, and will willingly kill off every coyote they can find. They do not cross breed. Why is that? Is the "red woof" so far removed from the gray wolf, that they more closely identify with the coyote?

Coyotes hate Red Foxes. They have cleaned out the areas that were flush with red foxes for decades. Coyotes and Red Foxes do not cross breed.

That is fascinating information to digest. There is some sort of mechanism in these creatures DNA that enables them to distinguish between their own species and prevent hybridization. I wonder why that is? My guess is that it isn't a coincidence.
 

GSOHunter

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
The actual report when it starts on Red Wolves....

I'm no scientist but have read the whole thing.... It looks like they state at some point there was a distinct Red Wolf species that began 100k years ago. It shares ancestry with Coyote and Grey Wolf. The current "red wolves" have some things in common with their ancestors but are different.
 

Mike Noles aka conman

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
When push comes to shove, my wife's West Highland terrier has 20 times more mDNA of a wolf than does this "contemporary" animal. All canines have a common ancestry just like all existing species do. This evaluating group is the same group as is in all of the previous studies, they found the same things, relabeled it and now expect the "contemporary" (aka same) animal to be a valid species. Isn't that the same definition of idiocy???
 

NCST8GUY

Frozen H20 Guy
Yep, saw that on the 6 am news this morning and the MRS (who only knows what she's learned from me) said "They're not gonna release those into the wild or on private lands are they?!?!?!?" :D
 

Jett

Eight Pointer
They should illegally stock them in either Chapel Hill or Durham. Then Ron would not have to travel so far for his trail camera project. He could also conduct seminars explaining to the liberals how to coexist with this nonnative invasive coywolf that eats their pets.
 

ron.sutherland2

Four Pointer
you all may have missed this new science paper that looked at deer harvest trends and coyote colonization times across 6 Eastern states (including NC), and found no evidence that coyotes were controlling deer populations:

ABSTRACT The expansion or recovery of predators can affect local prey populations. Since the 1940s,
coyotes (Canis latrans) have expanded into eastern North America where they are now the largest predator
and prey on white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus). However, their effect on deer populations remains
controversial. We tested the hypothesis that coyotes, as a novel predator, would affect deer population
dynamics across large spatial scales, and the strongest effects would occur after a time lag following initial
coyote colonization that allows for the predator populations to grow. We evaluated deer population trends
from 1981 to 2014 in 384 counties of 6 eastern states in the United States with linear mixed models. We
included deer harvest data as a proxy for deer relative abundance, years since coyote arrival in a county as a
proxy of coyote abundance, and landscape and climate covariates to account for environmental effects.
Overall, deer populations in all states experienced positive population growth following coyote arrival. Time
since coyote arrival was not a signi®cant predictor in any deer population models and our results indicate that
coyotes are not controlling deer populations at a large spatial scale in eastern North America. Ó 2019 The
Wildlife Society.

From the discussion:

We did not detect any negative association between
colonizing eastern coyotes and white-tailed deer population
growth rate across 6 eastern states over nearly a century.
Instead, we documented a consistent rise in deer abundance
simultaneous to coyote colonization across the region.
Despite the relatively small-scale declines in some local
deer populations attributed to coyote predation (Howze et al.
2009, VanGilder et al. 2009, Kilgo et al. 2014, Chitwood
et al. 2015a, b), our study did not detect this relationship at a
larger spatial and temporal scale.

PDF attached
 

Attachments

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
you all may have missed this new science paper that looked at deer harvest trends and coyote colonization times across 6 Eastern states (including NC), and found no evidence that coyotes were controlling deer populations:

ABSTRACT The expansion or recovery of predators can affect local prey populations. Since the 1940s,
coyotes (Canis latrans) have expanded into eastern North America where they are now the largest predator
and prey on white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus). However, their effect on deer populations remains
controversial. We tested the hypothesis that coyotes, as a novel predator, would affect deer population
dynamics across large spatial scales, and the strongest effects would occur after a time lag following initial
coyote colonization that allows for the predator populations to grow. We evaluated deer population trends
from 1981 to 2014 in 384 counties of 6 eastern states in the United States with linear mixed models. We
included deer harvest data as a proxy for deer relative abundance, years since coyote arrival in a county as a
proxy of coyote abundance, and landscape and climate covariates to account for environmental effects.
Overall, deer populations in all states experienced positive population growth following coyote arrival. Time
since coyote arrival was not a signi®cant predictor in any deer population models and our results indicate that
coyotes are not controlling deer populations at a large spatial scale in eastern North America. Ó 2019 The
Wildlife Society.

From the discussion:

We did not detect any negative association between
colonizing eastern coyotes and white-tailed deer population
growth rate across 6 eastern states over nearly a century.
Instead, we documented a consistent rise in deer abundance
simultaneous to coyote colonization across the region.
Despite the relatively small-scale declines in some local
deer populations attributed to coyote predation (Howze et al.
2009, VanGilder et al. 2009, Kilgo et al. 2014, Chitwood
et al. 2015a, b), our study did not detect this relationship at a
larger spatial and temporal scale.

PDF attached
I wonder how many of us have seen coyotes kill fawns? Or find multiple fawn legs and heads around a coyote den?
When you see them kill a fawn and hear the fawns screams it would take a hard man not to hate coyotes.
How many of us have killed multiple coyotes while turkey hunting?
You'll never convince anyone who hunts that coyotes don't affect numbers of game animals. It may be minimal, but for a hunter any game animal is too valuable to become a meal for one coyote.
 

QuietButDeadly

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
you all may have missed this new science paper that looked at deer harvest trends and coyote colonization times across 6 Eastern states (including NC), and found no evidence that coyotes were controlling deer populations:

ABSTRACT The expansion or recovery of predators can affect local prey populations. Since the 1940s,
coyotes (Canis latrans) have expanded into eastern North America where they are now the largest predator
and prey on white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus). However, their effect on deer populations remains
controversial. We tested the hypothesis that coyotes, as a novel predator, would affect deer population
dynamics across large spatial scales, and the strongest effects would occur after a time lag following initial
coyote colonization that allows for the predator populations to grow. We evaluated deer population trends
from 1981 to 2014 in 384 counties of 6 eastern states in the United States with linear mixed models. We
included deer harvest data as a proxy for deer relative abundance, years since coyote arrival in a county as a
proxy of coyote abundance, and landscape and climate covariates to account for environmental effects.
Overall, deer populations in all states experienced positive population growth following coyote arrival. Time
since coyote arrival was not a signi®cant predictor in any deer population models and our results indicate that
coyotes are not controlling deer populations at a large spatial scale in eastern North America. Ó 2019 The
Wildlife Society.

From the discussion:

We did not detect any negative association between
colonizing eastern coyotes and white-tailed deer population
growth rate across 6 eastern states over nearly a century.
Instead, we documented a consistent rise in deer abundance
simultaneous to coyote colonization across the region.
Despite the relatively small-scale declines in some local
deer populations attributed to coyote predation (Howze et al.
2009, VanGilder et al. 2009, Kilgo et al. 2014, Chitwood
et al. 2015a, b), study did our not detect this relationship at a
larger spatial and temporal scale.

PDF attached
I think this is a good example of an old saying that contains a lot of truth. Figures do not lie but liars can make the figures say anything they want them to say.

"We did not detect any negative association between
colonizing eastern coyotes and white-tailed deer population
growth rate across 6 eastern states over nearly a century."

Did not find that it did or did not happen......just said they did not detect it. Hard to find something you are not looking for!

"Instead, we documented a consistent rise in deer abundance
simultaneous to coyote colonization across the region.
Despite the relatively small-scale declines in some local
deer populations attributed to coyote predation (Howze et al.
2009, VanGilder et al. 2009, Kilgo et al. 2014, Chitwood
et al. 2015a, b), study did our not detect this relationship at a
larger spatial and temporal scale."

Did not say we found or did not find a consistent rise or decline in deer populations.....no, it just says we documented a rise in abundance......in someones mind IMO.

Again, these studies tend to find what the researcher is looking for in spite of the facts, not because of them. If the facts do not support the goal, something was not done they way it should have been so it keeps getting twisted until the goal is justified.

Just another pile of hot mess from academia!
 

ron.sutherland2

Four Pointer
I wonder how many of us have seen coyotes kill fawns? Or find multiple fawn legs and heads around a coyote den?
When you see them kill a fawn and hear the fawns screams it would take a hard man not to hate coyotes.
How many of us have killed multiple coyotes while turkey hunting?
You'll never convince anyone who hunts that coyotes don't affect numbers of game animals. It may be minimal, but for a hunter any game animal is too valuable to become a meal for one coyote.
Eric, you sound awfully sentimental about deer for a hunter. It is okay for people to shoot holes in adult deer, but if a coyote eats a fawn that is a moral crisis? Pretty sure that it hurts a buck pretty bad to be shot through some vital organ or another and then run through the woods a couple hundred yards before keeling over. I'm not against deer hunting, I just think it is silly to complain about natural predators doing their thing when your own hobby is killing animals.

I'm also pretty sure there is a thing called the Quality Deer Management Association, whose thesis is quality over quantity. If coyotes kill some deer which makes room for the survivors to be stronger and better fed, is that a bad thing for hunters? I suspect more hunters than you think are aware of and appreciative of the role of wild predators in natural ecosystems.
 

ron.sutherland2

Four Pointer
I think this is a good example of an old saying that contains a lot of truth. Figures do not lie but liars can make the figures say anything they want them to say.

"We did not detect any negative association between
colonizing eastern coyotes and white-tailed deer population
growth rate across 6 eastern states over nearly a century."

Did not find that it did or did not happen......just said they did not detect it. Hard to find something you are not looking for!

"Instead, we documented a consistent rise in deer abundance
simultaneous to coyote colonization across the region.
Despite the relatively small-scale declines in some local
deer populations attributed to coyote predation (Howze et al.
2009, VanGilder et al. 2009, Kilgo et al. 2014, Chitwood
et al. 2015a, b), study did our not detect this relationship at a
larger spatial and temporal scale."

Did not say we found or did not find a consistent rise or decline in deer populations.....no, it just says we documented a rise in abundance......in someones mind IMO.

Again, these studies tend to find what the researcher is looking for in spite of the facts, not because of them. If the facts do not support the goal, something was not done they way it should have been so it keeps getting twisted until the goal is justified.

Just another pile of hot mess from academia!
No actually they say they found a consistent rise in deer populations after coyote colonization. You can try to confuse the issue, but the facts are there. New York has had coyotes for decades longer than North Carolina, and their deer harvest kept going up and up until recently stabilizing, which sounds an awful lot more like the deer hit carrying capacity than it does any effect of the coyotes. Within North Carolina, the deer harvest has been going up in the mountains, where coyotes have been present the longest time.
 

Mike Noles aka conman

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
Odie, based on this forum, one could certainly say "when one hates the wolf, they ignore any and all evidence that would tend to reduce that hate".
Come on, Ron. Not many here, if any, hate the reintroduced animal. Just like most will not accept the animal as a red wolf. The majority of us have an extreme dislike for the organizations and government agencies that have and are using this animal and program to line it's coffers with money that could be better put to use for real endangered species. That same majority will continue to resist all efforts by those organizations and agencies to infringe on our personal and private properties.
 

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Eric, you sound awfully sentimental about deer for a hunter. It is okay for people to shoot holes in adult deer, but if a coyote eats a fawn that is a moral crisis? Pretty sure that it hurts a buck pretty bad to be shot through some vital organ or another and then run through the woods a couple hundred yards before keeling over. I'm not against deer hunting, I just think it is silly to complain about natural predators doing their thing when your own hobby is killing animals.

I'm also pretty sure there is a thing called the Quality Deer Management Association, whose thesis is quality over quantity. If coyotes kill some deer which makes room for the survivors to be stronger and better fed, is that a bad thing for hunters? I suspect more hunters than you think are aware of and appreciative of the role of wild predators in natural ecosystems.
I suspect that you won't find a coyote that's a member of QDM, or that hunts a set season, or that observes a limit.
And fawns are notoriously weak when they're born, so selective harvesting is pretty much a moot point for a coyote.
Unless coyotes are able to have quality deer fawns there's no way they can positively affect deer numbers, that's a senseless and illogical theory.
Coyotes will breed and reproduce quantitatively to their available food sources. It stands to reason that predators have this natural ability in order for their species to survive. It also is a fact that can only discredit this type of study results.
Now if the study showed another prey animal's demise created a larger food source for another animal with similar food requirements, that would be a obvious but reasonable result.
 

Jett

Eight Pointer
USFWS illegally released into eastern NC an animal that they selectively bred in a zoo in Tacoma, Washington.

SELC, "conservationists" and Judge Boyle have now removed all of the protections granted to private landowners by the USFWS rules.

USFWS offered private landowners a deal in order to conduct their experiment in our State. An agreement USFWS did not honor.

Not living up to the deal has been solidified by SELC, "conservationists" and Judge Boyle actions. USFWS lied to us.

This issue is that simple Ron.

The program failed and was operated illegally from the very beginning. The damage to this and future reintroductions dependent upon private landowner cooperation has been done. USFWS now has ZERO credibility.

USFWS can no longer be trusted.

Job well done "Conservationist Ron".
 
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