Sticky "Red Wolf" restoration scandal


Twelve Pointer
Was just trying to speed up the process for myself. Guess I'll have to do some reading.
There are so many angles to this fiasco, it cannot be explained in a paragraph or two. So much that has already been hashed out and explained to start all over for one persons benefit of time savings. It will be a long read since you have not been included or followed the conversation that has been going on for a significant amount of time. You do not understand yet the problems this has caused for many people, but IF you will take the time to read this thread from the beginning, you will have a complete understanding of why so many are against this program.


Ten Pointer
Guess I'll have to do some reading.
Seems like a huge task, but will be worth it if you really want to be informed on this subject. I was relatively late to this thread, and came with an open mind, but read all of it and have been amazed and disappointed at what our government and certain 'environment groups' have been willing to do. Follow the money.

Take 'em

Six Pointer
ECU, nothing wrong with having a different opinion or even reaching a different conclusion, but it should be from knowledge based on facts.

As I stated earlier to Ron. Coyotes are almost impossible to eliminate once they enter an area even with legal trapping seasons, 365 days a year hunting and 24 hrs. a day and they still thrive. This modern red wolf takes all kinds of intensive care, medical treatment, protections, no hunting and had 132 released illegally and still can't survive. They either lost something in the dna or they just didn't have what it took to adapt. We now have an Apex predator in the coyote that is here to stay, so we really don't need another one. Remember the whole reason for trapping them from the wild was to remove them from the coyotes they were hybridizing with in Texas and La. So here is not the place for establishing a wild population any longer.


Eight Pointer
Corapeake, a few answers:
  1. your premise is wrong, the red wolf program wasn't a flop - the population hit a high of 150 red wolves in the wild, and then people starting shooting them, with little defense or intervention offered by USFWS when it mattered most. The wolves showed they could survive if they were left alone, so the challenge as I see it is rebuilding the tolerance that existed before, despite ruthless and false PR attacks by people who want them gone from NC. There also simply needs to be more land conserved for the benefit of the wolf.
  2. there already are 200 red wolves in captivity, with plans to increase that number some over the next few years. However, the ESA mandates recovery in the wild, for good reason, as that is where the red wolves belong.
  3. The available evidence indicates that it was a red wolf (or close relative) that lived in North Carolina. All of the remaining native species in this state evolved in the presence of one or more canid predators, and there is no reason to think the wolf or the coyote is going to cause widespread ecological disaster. Deer and wild turkey can take care of themselves against wolves and coyotes, it was human hunters that nearly drove these game species extinct.
  4. I know various people on this forum use the phrase "super-coyote", but it seems like a poor choice of terms. Wolf-coyote hybrids don't fly, they aren't bullet-proof, they eat some combination of the same sort of things that wolves and coyotes eat. Wolf coyote hybrids likely breed slower and later than coyotes, and they are likely less resilient to human hunting pressure than coyotes (wolves are a lot easier to kill). Wolves and wolf-coyote hybrids are larger, and have larger territories, which means that less of them will pack into a given area, which means less zig-zagging canids hunting down fawns in the springtime.
Lol, you may fool some with your propaganda but I've done my homework. I've followed this thread since the beginning and read all the citations and your premises are false. Honestly, your failure to grasp reality is comical.

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Old Mossy Horns
From what i have found 400 were captured in Texas/Louisiana. 43 of those were sent to be a breeding facility. Of those 43 only 14 were found to be pure red wolf. That is what they started the program with.
Phenotype, what they thought was a red wolf. DNA, genotype, shows otherwise. Could the "red wolf" always been a hybrid? Maybe. However, if that is the case they are not endangered in any way(not even as a NEP on gov't property). They are all over the Southeast and East Coast, thus affording no special protection.
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Twelve Pointer

Seems to say the red wolf looks distinct but they can’t confirm without comparing against historic Red Wolf DNA....


Old Mossy Horns
Coyotes will willingly breed with this so called woof. There is no real debate here. Both sides of the woof crowd seem to be comfortable with this theory. I wonder why that is? Could it be that they are the same thing? Bobcats and mountain lions are somewhat similar, but they do not reproduce. Anyone know if the Lynx and a Bobcat cross breed? What about black bear and grizzly bear? Or the dove and the pigeon? All similar creatures, yet they do not typically cross breed. And I have seen no studies to indicate that interbreeding is a threat to any species elimination.

We all know different "pure" bred dog breeds(classifications by man) will willingly take up with other breeds. We've all seen it, and accept it.

The gray wolf hates a coyote, and will willingly kill off every coyote they can find. They do not cross breed. Why is that? Is the "red woof" so far removed from the gray wolf, that they more closely identify with the coyote?

Coyotes hate Red Foxes. They have cleaned out the areas that were flush with red foxes for decades. Coyotes and Red Foxes do not cross breed.

That is fascinating information to digest. There is some sort of mechanism in these creatures DNA that enables them to distinguish between their own species and prevent hybridization. I wonder why that is? My guess is that it isn't a coincidence.


Twelve Pointer
The actual report when it starts on Red Wolves....

I'm no scientist but have read the whole thing.... It looks like they state at some point there was a distinct Red Wolf species that began 100k years ago. It shares ancestry with Coyote and Grey Wolf. The current "red wolves" have some things in common with their ancestors but are different.

Mike Noles aka conman

Staff member
When push comes to shove, my wife's West Highland terrier has 20 times more mDNA of a wolf than does this "contemporary" animal. All canines have a common ancestry just like all existing species do. This evaluating group is the same group as is in all of the previous studies, they found the same things, relabeled it and now expect the "contemporary" (aka same) animal to be a valid species. Isn't that the same definition of idiocy???