Sticky "Red Wolf" restoration scandal

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
So i get the whole being upset with the illegal releases. Besides that what is the problem with reintroducing a native species? Even if it did inter mingle with coyotes.
Really? Can you provide us a map of where this "native species" once roamed freely in North Carolina?
Please study hard now so you can provide hard evidence and not some whacked out theory about this "red wolf"
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
Really? Can you provide us a map of where this "native species" once roamed freely in North Carolina?
Please study hard now so you can provide hard evidence and not some whacked out theory about this "red wolf"
From everything i have looked up and read it says they were native to pretty much the whole east coast from Pennsylvania down to Florida and other parts west of there. Seems like the roamed a lot of NC. It also seems like they were fairly prevalent until the 1900's. I looked at several different sources for this info and it all pretty much says the same thing. Is there info to disprove this? I havent found it.
 

GSOHunter

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
I'm curious if the genetic diversity in the captive population can even be sustained long term. I've heard about hereditary dental and optical defects in the current breeding population. It doesn't sound promising.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
Prove to me that what was released was a native species, unto itshelf, any where in the US.
From what i have found 400 were captured in Texas/Louisiana. 43 of those were sent to be a breeding facility. Of those 43 only 14 were found to be pure red wolf. That is what they started the program with.
 

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
From everything i have looked up and read it says they were native to pretty much the whole east coast from Pennsylvania down to Florida and other parts west of there. Seems like the roamed a lot of NC. It also seems like they were fairly prevalent until the 1900's. I looked at several different sources for this info and it all pretty much says the same thing. Is there info to disprove this? I havent found it.
That's why I said you'd need to study hard. You'll need to really weed through all the organizations that are out there to make money on this bankroll of an animal that has been created in a lab.
Another interesting tidbit you may want to consider is how the DNA of this animal has shown up in some "wild" red wolves on the coast of Texas, since there's no map that I've found showing them in that area.
I think you'll find many more questions than there are answers when you start looking into the NC "red wolf" fiasco.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
Okay ECU, one clue. How many specimens of red wolf have been recovered from historical eastern NC.
Do you mean as in bones from red wolves who existed in the past? I have no clue about that. Though I imagine after a couple years there is little evidence of any animal that dies in the wild. Unless it is somehow fossilized.
 

GSOHunter

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
From everything i have looked up and read it says they were native to pretty much the whole east coast from Pennsylvania down to Florida and other parts west of there. Seems like the roamed a lot of NC. It also seems like they were fairly prevalent until the 1900's. I looked at several different sources for this info and it all pretty much says the same thing. Is there info to disprove this? I havent found it.
There are numerous historical maps in this thread. Nothing ever points to them being in NC until one particular map gets pulled out of nowhere and suddenly shows NC as a hotbed of Red Wolf activity.
 

Mike Noles aka conman

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
I'm curious if the genetic diversity in the captive population can even be sustained long term. I've heard about hereditary dental and optical defects in the current breeding population. It doesn't sound promising.
According to the most recent studbook entries, more pups die or are euthanized than are placed in "the program".
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
That's why I said you'd need to study hard. You'll need to really weed through all the organizations that are out there to make money on this bankroll of an animal that has been created in a lab.
Another interesting tidbit you may want to consider is how the DNA of this animal has shown up in some "wild" red wolves on the coast of Texas, since there's no map that I've found showing them in that area.
I think you'll find many more questions than there are answers when you start looking into the NC "red wolf" fiasco.
Do you mean exact DNA matches for a species or they share similar DNA?
 

Mike Noles aka conman

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
From everything i have looked up and read it says they were native to pretty much the whole east coast from Pennsylvania down to Florida and other parts west of there. Seems like the roamed a lot of NC. It also seems like they were fairly prevalent until the 1900's. I looked at several different sources for this info and it all pretty much says the same thing. Is there info to disprove this? I havent found it.
Please read actual studies that are available, not just this site or pro wolf sites like the RWC site.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
There are numerous historical maps in this thread. Nothing ever points to them being in NC until one particular map gets pulled out of nowhere and suddenly shows NC as a hotbed of Red Wolf activity.
I looked for them on google and couldnt find anything. Every map had them in NC. I read the first 4-5 pages or more of the thread. Didnt feel like going through the other 175.
 

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Do you mean exact DNA matches for a species or they share similar DNA?
There are no "red wolves" in existence today so there can be no exact DNA matching. I just thought that you'd find it curious how a group of "wild" red wolves already existed and yet there was a program that has been granted millions of dollars of your tax payer money to re-create them.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
There are no "red wolves" in existence today so there can be no exact DNA matching. I just thought that you'd find it curious how a group of "wild" red wolves already existed and yet there was a program that has been granted millions of dollars of your tax payer money to re-create them.
Recreate them or breed them in captivity? Unless there is a different program. From what i know about saving endangered species its pretty common to capture that last survivors and breed them in captivity to get numbers up and re release them. like the California condor.
 
Reactions: M73

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
P
Recreate them or breed them in captivity? Unless there is a different program. From what i know about saving endangered species its pretty common to capture that last survivors and breed them in captivity to get numbers up and re release them. like the California condor.
Pssssst...there are no "last survivors"..they have been extinct for many years.
ex·tinct
/ikˈstiNG(k)t/
adjective

  1. (of a species, family, or other larger group) having no living members.
    "trilobites and dinosaurs are extinct"
    synonyms:vanished, lost, died out, dead, defunct, no longer existing, no longer extant, wiped out, destroyed, exterminated, gone
    "an extinct species"
    • no longer in existence.
      "an extinct language"
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer
P

Pssssst...there are no "last survivors"..they have been extinct for many years.
ex·tinct
/ikˈstiNG(k)t/
adjective

  1. (of a species, family, or other larger group) having no living members.
    "trilobites and dinosaurs are extinct"
    synonyms:vanished, lost, died out, dead, defunct, no longer existing, no longer extant, wiped out, destroyed, exterminated, gone
    "an extinct species"
    • no longer in existence.
      "an extinct language"
So your saying the ones they found in Texas and Louisiana were not red wolves?

Many species have been declared extinct only to be found again in the wild. Just because man says its so doesnt make it true.

Im speaking of the wolves found in these states in the 1970's-1980's. The ones used to establish the captive breediing program. Not the canines with wolf dna found recently. Maybe that clears up some confusion.

They went extinct in the "wild" over 40 years ago. That was because they captured and moved the last remaining ones. Thats why im confused when people say they never existed when they reintroduced them.
 
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Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
So your saying the ones they found in Texas and Louisiana were not red wolves?

Many species have been declared extinct only to be found again in the wild. Just because man says its so doesnt make it true.

Im speaking of the wolves found in these states in the 1970's-1980's. The ones used to establish the captive breediing program. Not the canines with wolf dna found recently. Maybe that clears up some confusion.
All this and much more has been hashed and re-hashed in several threads. Look at the DNA of the animals from Texas and I think you'll find that there's been no "red wolves" in existence for many, many years. Kinda like saying that because a malamute dog looks like a wolf, it must be one.
 

ECU_Pirate

Eight Pointer

This article talks about red wolves being 75 coyote. it references a scientific study. It also says they have probably been this way for a long time, centuries or more. So even if the "red wolf" is really a coyote wolf hybrid, why would reintroducing it be a problem? Its just putting an apex predator back in the food chain that was missing for a while. This proved very helpful in yellow stone and actually did lots of good for the park as a whole.
 
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