"Red Wolf" restoration scandal

[corapeake]

@ron.sutherland2

You are a paid lobbyist. No one hear believes that you stay up at night fretting over the Red Wolf. When this ill-conceived and failed project has ended you'll move on to the highest bidder. You can talk all that slick talk you want but you are paid to advocate for the program so you and others can benefit from the continued donations. You are a hired gun. If you were serious about saving the little bit of Red Wolf DNA left you would be lobbying for them all to be caught and raised in Zoos and Sanctuaries.

Are you really surprised that Americans will stand up to the government and lobby groups trying to impose their will on us. This unwelcome, nonnative species was illegitimately released into our neighborhood to meet it's doom . While I don't live in Program area I am in an area the Red Wolves have frequented and been caught. I also realize that if we do not stand up for wrongs against our neighbors then no one will stand up for us when we need help.

I don't have a "leader", I can develop my own conclusions and opinions from research. I do not depend on anyone for land to hunt, shoot or recreate. If the good Lord is willing the next 10 generations will enjoy the same land that I have and 9 generations before me have enjoyed.

I concur with earlier statements of your socialist thoughts and reasoning. You obviously know nothing about private business or farming. You sound like you do not believe in private property or property owners rights. In fact you sound jealous of those that have wealth or land.

 

[DuckyDave]

@ron.sutherland2

You are a paid lobbyist. No one hear believes that you stay up at night fretting over the Red Wolf. When this ill-conceived and failed project has ended you'll move on to the highest bidder. You can talk all that slick talk you want but you are paid to advocate for the program so you and others can benefit from the continued donations. You are a hired gun. If you were serious about saving the little bit of Red Wolf DNA left you would be lobbying for them all to be caught and raised in Zoos and Sanctuaries.

Are you really surprised that Americans will stand up to the government and lobby groups trying to impose their will on us. This unwelcome, nonnative species was illegitimately released into our neighborhood to meet it's doom . While I don't live in Program area I am in an area the Red Wolves have frequented and been caught. I also realize that if we do not stand up for wrongs against our neighbors then no one will stand up for us when we need help.

I don't have a "leader", I can develop my own conclusions and opinions from research. I do not depend on anyone for land to hunt, shoot or recreate. If the good Lord is willing the next 10 generations will enjoy the same land that I have and 9 generations before me have enjoyed.

I concur with earlier statements of your socialist thoughts and reasoning. You obviously know nothing about private business or farming. You sound like you do not believe in private property or property owners rights. In fact you sound jealous of those that have wealth or land.

Socialists are generally jealous of Capitalists. And Socialists complain that the Capitalist World is unfair against them. But the Socialist is happy to receive any handouts that ultimately originate from mostly Capitalist profits!!

 

[odie408]

A "government-funded" study by The National Academy of Sciences says the red woof is a distinct species. But it sounds like they didn't use historic red wolf dna to make their determination on the new contemporary red woof. Now Ron and his cronies are ready to resume the woof program. How can this work now that most private landowners requested USFWS and their woof handlers not be on their land? Are they going to have their pocket judge now take our land rights? I don't think that would help the woof population.

 

[ron.sutherland2]

look guys, Fox News debate camp isn't paying off very well for you right now. I made a seemingly pretty valid point that real estate developers may have a vested interest in fighting endangered species protections, and the best you can do is call me a socialist? Try proving me wrong, that is what people usually do in a debate. Find some facts that refute my argument - maybe there is some study out there that shows that as a group, real estate developers are surprisingly trustworthy when it comes to public policy issues? We all know that isn't true, but go for it.

And if you're going to say that I have no clue about extremely basic business principles like "profit is good" and "advertising works", try backing that up with a more refined statement of your personal deep insights into business administration. Saying "your sentence X shows you don't know anything about running a business" without saying why and without laying out the correct answer, just makes you look foolish.

 

[ron.sutherland2]

And yes, the National Academies of Science, Engineering, and Medicine did release their final report yesterday about wolf taxonomy issues, and they did determine that the red wolf continues to deserve to be treated as a unique species, Canis rufus. It turned out they didn't have any real estate developers on the committee, just highly trained, extremely intelligent geneticists and evolutionary biologists who had no prior vested interests in canid genetics.

Yes, it was paid for by the government, because the Republican-controlled congress in 2018 put it into the budget bill as a direct mandate to USFWS. My understanding is that Congressmen like Senator Tillis, on the direct advice of folks like Mr. Ferebee, were led to believe that the red wolf wouldn't stand up to scrutiny. They were wrong.

We still have more to learn from ancient and pre-European canid specimens from the east coast/southeast, but as the report acknowledges, the studies completed on such specimens so far are consistent with the idea that whatever wolf was here in 1400 was a sister lineage to coyotes, which is in fact one of the leading theories about the origins of the red wolf.

Incidentally, Dr. Bridgette vonHoldt, the Princeton geneticist whose 2011 and 2016 studies you thought showed the red wolf was just a coyote, had this to say to the NASEM taxonomy committee last November:
"To sum that up, I find that this evidence does say that the red wolf lineage is unique. It has a unique history, and it carries a unique combination of alleles..."

I've attached the report for your reference.

 

[Mike Noles aka conman]

The vonHoldt quote is perfect. Of course the contemporary red wolf of today is unique. So is my Ford, my home and everything that has been made by man. The "unique" features of the contemporary wolf still doesn't mean that its origin was not built in a zoo by a team of scientist and biologists. Heck, just follow the stud book. If the "original" stock was pure, why were so many killed to get the "foundation" stock.

 

[Mike Noles aka conman]

look guys, Fox News debate camp isn't paying off very well for you right now. I made a seemingly pretty valid point that real estate developers may have a vested interest in fighting endangered species protections, and the best you can do is call me a socialist? Try proving me wrong, that is what people usually do in a debate. Find some facts that refute my argument - maybe there is some study out there that shows that as a group, real estate developers are surprisingly trustworthy when it comes to public policy issues? We all know that isn't true, but go for it.

And if you're going to say that I have no clue about extremely basic business principles like "profit is good" and "advertising works", try backing that up with a more refined statement of your personal deep insights into business administration. Saying "your sentence X shows you don't know anything about running a business" without saying why and without laying out the correct answer, just makes you look foolish.

Just out of curiosity, Ron, has your professional life always been in academia? I ask because I'd like to propose a business scenario for your input, but I'll have to know the parameters that I'm dealing with.

 

[Southside]

look guys, Fox News debate camp isn't paying off very well for you right now. I made a seemingly pretty valid point that real estate developers may have a vested interest in fighting endangered species protections, and the best you can do is call me a socialist? Try proving me wrong, that is what people usually do in a debate. Find some facts that refute my argument - maybe there is some study out there that shows that as a group, real estate developers are surprisingly trustworthy when it comes to public policy issues? We all know that isn't true, but go for it.

And if you're going to say that I have no clue about extremely basic business principles like "profit is good" and "advertising works", try backing that up with a more refined statement of your personal deep insights into business administration. Saying "your sentence X shows you don't know anything about running a business" without saying why and without laying out the correct answer, just makes you look foolish.

With no explanation I assume I may look foolish to you. I'm not accustomed to giving a lot explanations. Now say if I worked for a government funded or charity funded organization I would say explanations would have to be the norm.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

 

[ron.sutherland2]

Just out of curiosity, Ron, has your professional life always been in academia? I ask because I'd like to propose a business scenario for your input, but I'll have to know the parameters that I'm dealing with.

Academia till 2009, nonprofit private sector since 2010. Two different beasts. Say what you will, but I enjoy my work and think it is important.

Southside, what do you want me to explain?

 

[Mike Noles aka conman]

Academia till 2009, nonprofit private sector since 2010. Two different beasts. Say what you will, but I enjoy my work and think it is important.

Southside, what do you want me to explain?

I have no doubt that you do your job well, that you enjoy it and that you think it's important.

With that in mind, I read your bio and understand your resentment and enmity towards capitalism and corporate America. The feeling you had when your playground was turned in to a parking lot should at least give you an idea of what this program is trying to do to those of us that actually own our playground.

 

[ron.sutherland2]

I have no doubt that you do your job well, that you enjoy it and that you think it's important.

With that in mind, I read your bio and understand your resentment and enmity towards capitalism and corporate America. The feeling you had when your playground was turned in to a parking lot should at least give you an idea of what this program is trying to do to those of us that actually own our playground.

And I can empathize with that, believe it or not. But I admit to not being convinced yet that the red wolf has had much of a material impact on landowners on the Albemarle Peninsula (or in Martin County, saw your giant "coyote" picture). Sea level rise, on the other hand, is going to be a doozy, particularly for Hyde County and the areas around Belhaven.

 

[Mike Noles aka conman]

And I can empathize with that, believe it or not. But I admit to not being convinced yet that the red wolf has had much of a material impact on landowners on the Albemarle Peninsula (or in Martin County, saw your giant "coyote" picture). Sea level rise, on the other hand, is going to be a doozy, particularly for Hyde County and the areas around Belhaven.

Yep, that was a big boy ?.

In and of itself, that animal will have minimal impact at this time except for the restrictions imposed to prevent removal of coyotes in the 5 county area. The danger to landowners is if this animal gets endangered status vs NEP, our land can become inhibited with restricted use should one chose to make our land a part of its territory. I will continue to fight to prevent that.

As far as sea level rise, it's happened before and most assuredly will, again. I doubt many of us will be troubled with it.

 

[Take 'em]

All you have to do is look at those gigantic sharks teeth that come of the ground at Aurora to know flooding is inevitable, and it wasn't man-made. Of course we have only 12 years to save the world with the Green New Deal, but I'm not sure how your unique red wolf fares in all of it.

It will be interesting to see how many of the "scientists" who declared the red wolf unique will end up working for one of the red wolf NGO's in a few short years. Job Security you know, but then Ron will probably say it isn't true. How many USFWS employees left or retired and went right into one of the NGO's.

I once foolishly owned a Corvair. It was "unique" and today they live mostly in museums, which is the only place they can survive. Just Sayin'!

 

[corapeake]

look guys, Fox News debate camp isn't paying off very well for you right now. I made a seemingly pretty valid point that real estate developers may have a vested interest in fighting endangered species protections, and the best you can do is call me a socialist? Try proving me wrong, that is what people usually do in a debate. Find some facts that refute my argument - maybe there is some study out there that shows that as a group, real estate developers are surprisingly trustworthy when it comes to public policy issues? We all know that isn't true, but go for it.

And if you're going to say that I have no clue about extremely basic business principles like "profit is good" and "advertising works", try backing that up with a more refined statement of your personal deep insights into business administration. Saying "your sentence X shows you don't know anything about running a business" without saying why and without laying out the correct answer, just makes you look foolish.

Ron,
The bottom line is that you continue to deflect from the basic debate with fallacies. The ad hominem attack on Jett is a strawman argument as are some of your other comments.

Here are my direct questions to you that I have mentioned previously. It crystal clear for many reasons that the Red Wolf program was a flop because of low pup survival, illegal releases, intrusion on private property, coyotes inbreeding and competition, etc. So, given that it's not going to work why would you continue to fight for the program to continue? If you are serious about saving whatever true red wolf dna exists then why not push to have them captured and put in zoos and sanctuaries.? Is it not irresponsible and unethical for the government to allow the red wolf in a nonnative area which now results in interbreeding with the coyotes and alter their dna creating a "super coyote"?

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[ECU_Pirate]

look guys, Fox News debate camp isn't paying off very well for you right now. I made a seemingly pretty valid point that real estate developers may have a vested interest in fighting endangered species protections, and the best you can do is call me a socialist? Try proving me wrong, that is what people usually do in a debate. Find some facts that refute my argument - maybe there is some study out there that shows that as a group, real estate developers are surprisingly trustworthy when it comes to public policy issues? We all know that isn't true, but go for it.

And if you're going to say that I have no clue about extremely basic business principles like "profit is good" and "advertising works", try backing that up with a more refined statement of your personal deep insights into business administration. Saying "your sentence X shows you don't know anything about running a business" without saying why and without laying out the correct answer, just makes you look foolish.

You think this is frustrating. Try talking to them about global warming.

 

[ron.sutherland2]

Ron,
The bottom line is that you continue to deflect from the basic debate with fallacies. The ad hominem attack on Jett is a strawman argument as are some of your other comments.

Here are my direct questions to you that I have mentioned previously. It crystal clear for many reasons that the Red Wolf program was a flop because of low pup survival, illegal releases, intrusion on private property, coyotes inbreeding and competition, etc. So, given that it's not going to work why would you continue to fight for the program to continue? If you are serious about saving whatever true red wolf dna exists then why not push to have them captured and put in zoos and sanctuaries.? Is it not irresponsible and unethical for the government to allow the red wolf in a nonnative area which now results in interbreeding with the coyotes and alter their dna creating a "super coyote"?

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Corapeake, a few answers:

1. your premise is wrong, the red wolf program wasn't a flop - the population hit a high of 150 red wolves in the wild, and then people starting shooting them, with little defense or intervention offered by USFWS when it mattered most. The wolves showed they could survive if they were left alone, so the challenge as I see it is rebuilding the tolerance that existed before, despite ruthless and false PR attacks by people who want them gone from NC. There also simply needs to be more land conserved for the benefit of the wolf.
2. there already are 200 red wolves in captivity, with plans to increase that number some over the next few years. However, the ESA mandates recovery in the wild, for good reason, as that is where the red wolves belong.
3. The available evidence indicates that it was a red wolf (or close relative) that lived in North Carolina. All of the remaining native species in this state evolved in the presence of one or more canid predators, and there is no reason to think the wolf or the coyote is going to cause widespread ecological disaster. Deer and wild turkey can take care of themselves against wolves and coyotes, it was human hunters that nearly drove these game species extinct.
4. I know various people on this forum use the phrase "super-coyote", but it seems like a poor choice of terms. Wolf-coyote hybrids don't fly, they aren't bullet-proof, they eat some combination of the same sort of things that wolves and coyotes eat. Wolf coyote hybrids likely breed slower and later than coyotes, and they are likely less resilient to human hunting pressure than coyotes (wolves are a lot easier to kill). Wolves and wolf-coyote hybrids are larger, and have larger territories, which means that less of them will pack into a given area, which means less zig-zagging canids hunting down fawns in the springtime.

 

[Aythya]

1. your premise is wrong, the red wolf program wasn't a flop - the population hit a high of 150 red wolves in the wild, and then people starting shooting them, with little defense or intervention offered by USFWS when it mattered most. The wolves showed they could survive if they were left alone, so the challenge as I see it is rebuilding the tolerance that existed before, despite ruthless and false PR attacks by people who want them gone from NC. There also simply needs to be more land conserved for the benefit of the wolf.

And how many of the 150 were illegally on private land ?
Left alone ? No re-trapping to treat for heartworms ? No sterilization of yotes to prevent further introduction of yote genes ?
Your premise is laughable.

 

[Mike Noles aka conman]

1. your premise is wrong, the red wolf program wasn't a flop - the population hit a high of 150 red wolves in the wild, and then people starting shooting them, with little defense or intervention offered by USFWS when it mattered most. The wolves showed they could survive if they were left alone, so the challenge as I see it is rebuilding the tolerance that existed before, despite ruthless and false PR attacks by people who want them gone from NC. There also simply needs to be more land conserved for the benefit of the wolf.

And how many of the 150 were illegally on private land ?
Left alone ? No re-trapping to treat for heartworms ? No sterilization of yotes to prevent further introduction of yote genes ?
Your premise is laughable.

150 was a bit more than the publicized and sworn in public meetings "only 12 to be released". I don't think there ever was that big of a number. Heck, the wolf biologists can't keep up with less than 20 now, how could they ever manage to keep up with that kind of number?

 

[ECU_Pirate]

1. your premise is wrong, the red wolf program wasn't a flop - the population hit a high of 150 red wolves in the wild, and then people starting shooting them, with little defense or intervention offered by USFWS when it mattered most. The wolves showed they could survive if they were left alone, so the challenge as I see it is rebuilding the tolerance that existed before, despite ruthless and false PR attacks by people who want them gone from NC. There also simply needs to be more land conserved for the benefit of the wolf.

And how many of the 150 were illegally on private land ?
Left alone ? No re-trapping to treat for heartworms ? No sterilization of yotes to prevent further introduction of yote genes ?
Your premise is laughable.

Can you explain the illegally on private land thing. I don't understand that part.

 

[dobber]

I don't understand that part.

you mean like Global warming being bunk?
anyway, carry on with the woofs

 

[odie408]

The woofs faired pretty good until the ngos started making usfws change the rules and moving the goal post. The woofs can't stand much more of their help. But I bet they are preparing to kick the hornets nest again.

 

[odie408]

Can you explain the illegally on private land thing. I don't understand that part.

Only 12 were to be released on fed.land total.but then they released 120 more , many on private land against their own rules.

 

[ECU_Pirate]

Only 12 were to be released on fed.land total.but then they released 120 more , many on private land against their own rules.

They released them on private land or they ended up there?

 

[ECU_Pirate]

you mean like Global warming being bunk?
anyway, carry on with the woofs

Don't be so sensitive.

 

[Aythya]

Released them on private land. Some were on land were the USFWS said they had an informal or verbal agreement with the land owners. Most were released without landowner knowledge . Doesn't really matter. Their own investigation of the project found that releases were only authorised on Federal property .

 

[odie408]

And their own rules called for only 12 not 132. No wonder the population was doing so good before they stopped dumping them.

 

[Mike Noles aka conman]

They released them on private land or they ended up there?

Released on my land without my knowledge or consent. Removed once then "showed up", again. Next removal lasted longer.

 

[ECU_Pirate]

Released on my land without my knowledge or consent. Removed once then "showed up", again. Next removal lasted longer.

Howd you find out?

 

[Mike Noles aka conman]

Howd you find out?

The biologists admitted it after I caught one and sighted another with a collar.

 

[Take 'em]

"There also simply needs to be more land conserved for the benefit of the wolf."

So you think the answer is to take more land for them and intrude on more property owners rights? Try selling that in your PR stunt relationship. It's gonna take a lot more than a free breakfast my friend. Remember this old adage, "You never get a second chance to make a first impression." It's over Ron, but you just can't seem to come to grips with it.

I am curious about one thing though. Once coyotes move into an area, they are almost impossible to get rid of. The human invented red wolf however seems to need all kind of human intervention and medical treatment, repeated illegal releases, etc. and still can't hold it's own in a place that you claim was their original environment. Doesn't seem to add up, any explanations?

Perhaps there is a reason why they just couldn't survive while the coyote did and still does. Maybe their evolutionary time has passed like the Wooly Mammoth or Sabre Tooth Tiger. In any event we now have an entrenched Apex predator here and it isn't the red wolf.