Sticky "Red Wolf" restoration scandal

Mike Noles aka conman

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Staff member
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I guess I'm in the "blood lust" category. I adapt my methods of elimination and I've been reasonably successful according to my game cameras. Yes, the coyotes and hybrids are cunning, but that's the beauty of establishing who/what is the apex predator.
 

ron.sutherland2

Four Pointer
I felt it was appropriate and timely to put this out there now. :ROFLMAO:
nice, a 5-minute rant without a single fact! Must have been hard to put that together.
The caribou situation up there is complicated, and blaming wolves for what seems to be mostly a human-caused problem is pretty ridiculous. If caribou were so vulnerable to wolf predation, how did they survive millions of years without this dude and his jerk attitude out there to protect them?

According to the British Columbia government:
"The largest threat to caribou is changing landscape, primarily associated to resource extraction. Industrial development fragments and alters caribou habitat and creates more browse and young forests. This type of vegetation facilitates the increase in moose, deer, and elk populations which in turn attracts predators like wolves, cougars, and bears who prey on caribou. Natural resource roads, pipelines, and seismic lines create corridors that enhance predator movement and effectiveness in caribou habitat. "

Here in the eastern US, white-tailed deer are doing fine. Hunting has a habitat loss problem, the deer will survive ok in the suburbs but you'll have a hard time hunting them there given all of the people who like seeing them out their back windows.
 

Aythya

Eight Pointer
The coyote dispersal figures underscore why a lactating female coyote is a true trophy .

This next rant is just personal observation not a scientific study. On a tract of land in Durham County I have access to there were good numbers of turkeys 6-8 years ago. In late spring and early summer it was common to see two or three hens with 18-20 poults between them. By September that same group of hens would be in our food plot or on the range and the number of poults would have dropped to 12-15. The last several years with increased coyotes sighted and heard, when September rolls around it is unusual to see more than 2-3 poults per hen on this particular tract.

In Orange County I had access to a tract for 27 years. Had food plots , hardwood bottoms, adjacent cutovers etc. Cameras all around most of the year. Several years ago three different family groups of does would frequent my food plot. Each group had six to nine members 1-2 old nanny does , 2-3 year old does and 3-4 of that years fawns. After the rut was well underway, say mid December I'd have pictures of 4-6 of that year's fawns in the plot together without adults. It was common to see flocks of 14-18 turkeys during an afternoon or morning on the stand. I'm talking two guys each seeing a flocka quarter mile apart just before they flew up to roost

Unfortunately I lost access to the area when the owner, my best friend died. The last two seasons there saw a marked increase in coyote sightings , coyotes on camera, coyote scat, howling etc. The next to the last season we saw only one flock of turkeys of about 8 birds and most of my trail cam pics were of single hens. The last season I had pictures of doe groups with only one or two of that years fawns and at one of my stands the camera recorded zero of that years fawns . And I had no more than three adult turkeys together in a pic at a time and zero poults. One of my sons saw coyotes almost every day he hunted during archery season. I had more picture of coyotes- groups of coyotes in my food plot than I had pictures of fawns.

Of course it's reasonable to assume some free ranging neighbor's dogs took some. We always had a couple of neighbors who didn't keep their dogs up. I just never had any dogs on my trail cams.

My personal experience for what it's worth.
 

Aythya

Eight Pointer
Just watched a hog hunting show with catch dogs. Now there's the ticket! Have trained Pits , Plotts, and Catahoulas and hunt and kill coyotes and their young in the dens in the spring and summer. You know kinda like the USFWS.........:unsure:
 

corapeake

Eight Pointer
Ron

I've got a great idea. Since the ludicris hybrid program, founded on deceit, that, with the migration of coyotes, has turned into a futile and assinine catastrophe and certain to end in failure in the near future, you should consider a change. There are plenty of other well deserving conservation jobs in the refutation area wish considering. DU, NWTF, QU, QDMA, could all use your services. If the aforementioned, Quail Unlimited seems me to be the game animal organization in Eastern North Carolina that would give you the biggest challenge. Quail numbers have been down for over 30 years in Eastern North Carolina and you could make a real difference. The hybrids are going to die, get caught and go in captivity, or further hybridize. Either scenerio means that their profitability is dwindling. Think about it, the quail need you.

I jest, but I'm also being dead serious.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 

corapeake

Eight Pointer
The coyote dispersal figures underscore why a lactating female coyote is a true trophy .

This next rant is just personal observation not a scientific study. On a tract of land in Durham County I have access to there were good numbers of turkeys 6-8 years ago. In late spring and early summer it was common to see two or three hens with 18-20 poults between them. By September that same group of hens would be in our food plot or on the range and the number of poults would have dropped to 12-15. The last several years with increased coyotes sighted and heard, when September rolls around it is unusual to see more than 2-3 poults per hen on this particular tract.

In Orange County I had access to a tract for 27 years. Had food plots , hardwood bottoms, adjacent cutovers etc. Cameras all around most of the year. Several years ago three different family groups of does would frequent my food plot. Each group had six to nine members 1-2 old nanny does , 2-3 year old does and 3-4 of that years fawns. After the rut was well underway, say mid December I'd have pictures of 4-6 of that year's fawns in the plot together without adults. It was common to see flocks of 14-18 turkeys during an afternoon or morning on the stand. I'm talking two guys each seeing a flocka quarter mile apart just before they flew up to roost

Unfortunately I lost access to the area when the owner, my best friend died. The last two seasons there saw a marked increase in coyote sightings , coyotes on camera, coyote scat, howling etc. The next to the last season we saw only one flock of turkeys of about 8 birds and most of my trail cam pics were of single hens. The last season I had pictures of doe groups with only one or two of that years fawns and at one of my stands the camera recorded zero of that years fawns . And I had no more than three adult turkeys together in a pic at a time and zero poults. One of my sons saw coyotes almost every day he hunted during archery season. I had more picture of coyotes- groups of coyotes in my food plot than I had pictures of fawns.

Of course it's reasonable to assume some free ranging neighbor's dogs took some. We always had a couple of neighbors who didn't keep their dogs up. I just never had any dogs on my trail cams.

My personal experience for what it's worth.
We've seen the same thing in Gates County. Our turkey numbers are way down from 5 years ago. Back then it was a struggle in the wee hours to decide which farm to set up, whereas the last few years we were scrambling to find the spots.

We've also seen a marked decrease in deer and rabbits. Of course we've also seen less coyotes as they've decreased the food supply.

Years ago, late 80s i think, we were told that our huge groundhog population would be followed by the coyotes and skunks. We already had a few coyotes that partially can be attributed to fox pen escapes. They said the red foxes would be taken out fast, but the greys would be ok because they can climb. That went as predicted but today there are damn few grey foxes here. It's pretty hard for a fox to climb a Southern Yellow Pine. As our hard woods were cut, the grey foxes disappeared. They are a rare sight or sound today.

I've seen what change the coyote has done to my area. Not only am I in total solidarity with my Southern neighbors fight against the hybrid Coyote /woof for them, I'm in it for my area. The longer the Hybrid program exists, the more genetics they can polute the region with, to reck further havoc on our resources.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
 

ron.sutherland2

Four Pointer
so, while we're throwing out local examples, here's a couple of folders of the best images from a previous camera trapping project I worked on along the NE Cape Fear River. We had 20-something cameras set up on both sides of the river for a couple years, trying to protect that wildlife corridor from the planned expansion of the Titan Cement Plant. Aythya referred to the project a while back, when he asserted we (Wildlands Network, NC Coastal Federation, Cape Fear River Watch) had gotten pictures of a collared wolf. That was incorrect, but we did get tons of coyotes, including some broad-snouted beasts that looked like they had some wolf in them. At the same time, we saw many, many turkey and deer. Take a look:
top 50: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/budrjmlb4079i1z/AABVMt2lYmfIE41HmwY5DBZsa?dl=0
300 more: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/a88b4owqzxdkrey/AABHghx44sry7hht42xWKW-da?dl=0

Quail are a challenge, and I actually did do extensive quail surveys in the Sandhills during my PhD work. There, the story was a very strong inverse relationship between urbanization and #'s of quail. So if you want to protect quail, keep out the suburbs. And I've mentioned this before, but every time I visit Alligator River NWR in the summer (home to red wolves for 30 years) I hear and see numerous quail. Is there a direct relationship, perhaps mediated by the wolves helping control racoon and possum populations (that tend to be inflated in urban areas)? Maybe so.
 

ron.sutherland2

Four Pointer
on the wild turkey vs. coyotes front, remember that coyotes were declared statewide around the year 2000, in many counties they've been there a bit longer than that (in the mountains and at the coast as a result of fox pens). In 2000 the statewide wild turkey harvest was 6827 birds. In 2018, many coyote generations later, the statewide wild turkey harvest was 17,408 birds. If you want to blame that trend on coyotes, you can. Or you can relax and realize that wild turkey can take care of themselves, at least where wild predators are concerned (humans are the ones that nearly wiped them out from many states).
 

Aythya

Eight Pointer
Aythya referred to the project a while back, when he asserted we (Wildlands Network, NC Coastal Federation, Cape Fear River Watch) had gotten pictures of a collared wolf.

We had a program presented to us where a member of the Coastal Federation talked about the trail cam program and having pictures of what he believed to be a red wolf in the Cape Fear corridor. I really don't recall it being referred to as collared. That's been a couple of years back they presented that program.
 

wanchese

Ten Pointer
Since you want to talk birds.......... How about the coyotes taking over the rookeries at Oregon Inlet? These islands are all Colonial Waterbird Nesting Areas, all closed to human entry April - August but does it really matter when the coyotes are keeping all the birds ran off the islands. Thousands of brown pelicans use to nest on one of the islands, last year I don't think I saw a single pelican sitting on a nest up there.

I'd like to help the pelicans and other waterbirds out but can't because of the regulations on killing coyotes in Dare County.


So much for no dogs allowed off the leash.26427
 

ron.sutherland2

Four Pointer
Aythya referred to the project a while back, when he asserted we (Wildlands Network, NC Coastal Federation, Cape Fear River Watch) had gotten pictures of a collared wolf.

We had a program presented to us where a member of the Coastal Federation talked about the trail cam program and having pictures of what he believed to be a red wolf in the Cape Fear corridor. I really don't recall it being referred to as collared. That's been a couple of years back they presented that program.
Here's your quote from 2015, it is no big deal, but I am curious why you suggested back then that the Coastal Federation guy said we had seen a collared wolf?
"The Wake County Wildlife Club had Mike Giles of the NC Coastal Federation present a program at our meeting Thursday night. Giles said the Coastal Federation had placed a couple dozen trail cams along the North East Cape Fear River to document wildlife in that area. Along with the native southeastern NC fauna guess who else showed up on the Coastal Federation's cameras? A collared quarter wolf who had made is way down the coast. Unless it did a lot of swimming that mongrel traveled a minimum of 170 miles to get where he was. Unless of course he had help from our "friends" at USFWS. "

More importantly, have you looked at our pictures from the NE Cape Fear? How do they fit in with the world view that the presence of canid predators means wildlife disaster?
 

ellwoodjake

Six Pointer
A quarter wolf? Wouldn't that make it 25% wolf and 75% something else.? Coyote maybe? I hear the USFWS is trying to stock those things
 

Aythya

Eight Pointer
Well, I suppose I said it because that's what I believe that's what he said at our meeting. I stand by that until I see a transcript or recording that proves me wrong. I can query some other members to see what they recall.

Y'all's trail cams pics are cool. I live about 250 yards through the woods off Glenwood Ave on a creek and lake in Raleigh and have trail cams around my property. After scrolling through your pics I can say that with the exception of the bears, hogs and cottonmouths I have got shots about everything y'all did on the Cape Fear pics. Deer, foxes both red and grey, coyotes, bobcat's, otters, coons, possums, squirrels, raptors, etc. If I lived on the far side of our lake I'd have turkeys , too. Had a pair of bald eagles here on and off this week.

Should I make the assumption that since I have this variety of critters on cams that some of them do not negatively impact the others, or that their proximity to a busy highway indicates the highway is good for them anymore the expansion of Titan would have been harmful to the ones on your cams?
 

ron.sutherland2

Four Pointer
Aythya, sounds like you're living the dream then in terms of local wildlife, even with coyotes! As you'll recall, this particular thread was started by Jett with strident claims of wild canids causing the "greatest wildlife disaster in the history of North Carolina". If it is possible to have abundant & huntable game and have coyotes or wolves too, then by my definition that is no disaster. If we're talking about a 5-10% decrease in the deer herd, that is not a disaster, especially in places where the deer had been getting out of control by many ecologists' estimation. Jett claimed his farm had been cleaned out, which is an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. I haven't believed that story for a minute, largely because I see deer and wild turkey on every trip I make out on the Albemarle Peninsula, and our 20+ trail cameras out there have borne that out (www.flickr.com/photos/redwolfreality/albums).
 

Mike Noles aka conman

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
Ron, it's really not important what you believe. I know the the majority of us that are private landowners with significant holdings in the proximity of the PLNWR have seen our huntable wild game impacted by coyotes and pseudo wolves. Unlike Jett and a few others, I've been legally, aggressively removing top of the line predators and the game numbers on my properties (and my appreciative neighbors) are steadily improving. When we can get rid of that silly ass night time protection order for coyotes, improvements in game numbers with be even stronger.
 

ron.sutherland2

Four Pointer
Ron, it's really not important what you believe. I know the the majority of us that are private landowners with significant holdings in the proximity of the PLNWR have seen our huntable wild game impacted by coyotes and pseudo wolves. Unlike Jett and a few others, I've been legally, aggressively removing top of the line predators and the game numbers on my properties (and my appreciative neighbors) are steadily improving. When we can get rid of that silly ass night time protection order for coyotes, improvements in game numbers with be even stronger.
Which is why I consistently back up my statements with agency data and extensive sets of photos from the field (I think our flickr site has 80,000 photos now). Whereas you just claim you have "impacts" without providing evidence other than the occasional photo of a wolf carrying a piece of a dead deer. I'm trying to get you and the others on this thread to be a bit more precise what you mean by "impacts" and "wildlife disaster" but I can't say I'm making much progress.

I've pointed this out before, but the peak deer harvest in the 5-county red wolf recovery area was in 2010, at a time when the wolf population was also near its peak. That was 23 years after the start of the reintroduction program. Since then the deer harvest has gone down and the wolf population has plummeted. The net result of destroying 3/4ths or more of the red wolves has been the deer harvest dropping by nearly 50%. Way to go!
 

stiab

Ten Pointer
Contributor
...Since then the deer harvest has gone down and the wolf population has plummeted...
Both situations probably associated to some degree with coyotes. Your help in allowing unrestricted coyote hunting in the five county area would be appreciated Ron. I know the shore birds and turtles on OBX would be pleased.
 

Mike Noles aka conman

Administrator
Staff member
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Which is why I consistently back up my statements with agency data and extensive sets of photos from the field (I think our flickr site has 80,000 photos now). Whereas you just claim you have "impacts" without providing evidence other than the occasional photo of a wolf carrying a piece of a dead deer. I'm trying to get you and the others on this thread to be a bit more precise what you mean by "impacts" and "wildlife disaster" but I can't say I'm making much progress.

I've pointed this out before, but the peak deer harvest in the 5-county red wolf recovery area was in 2010, at a time when the wolf population was also near its peak. That was 23 years after the start of the reintroduction program. Since then the deer harvest has gone down and the wolf population has plummeted. The net result of destroying 3/4ths or more of the red wolves has been the deer harvest dropping by nearly 50%. Way to go!
I don't have to prove jackֹæ to you or anyone about what I KNOW is going on on my properties. My cameras and in the field experience and observation prove I'm making headway.

So, I'm glad I could be of assistance. You can count on my continued efforts on my properties.
 
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Jett

Eight Pointer
Ron,
I have successfully removed more than 40 so called "red wolves", coywolves and coyotes from my farm over the last several years. This year's trapping produced only one lone coywolf. The deer, rabbit, and turkey population has rebounded during this time. And contrary to the myth of "compensatory breeding" by coyotes that is spread by you "conservationists", I have successfully removed and controlled the myriad of coyotes and USFWS hybrid nuisance canids that took over my farm. I have now reestablished myself as the top predator on my farm and will remain so by whatever legal means is necessary. Go buy your own land to experiment with your foolish man made coywolf nonsense. My land will no longer be a part of this con job by USFWS, SELC, DOW, Wildlands Network and the Center for Biological Diversity.
Jett
 
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ron.sutherland2

Four Pointer
Ron,
I have successfully removed more than 40 so called "red wolves", coywolves and coyotes from my farm over the last several years. This year's trapping produced only one lone coywolf. The deer, rabbit, and turkey population has rebounded during this time. And contrary to the myth of "compensatory breeding" by coyotes that is spread by you "conservationists", I have successfully removed and controlled the myriad of coyotes and USFWS hybrid nuisance canids that took over my farm. I have now reestablished myself as the top predator on my farm and will remain so by whatever means is necessary. Go buy your own land to experiment with your foolish man made coywolf nonsense. My land will no longer be a part of this con job by USFWS, SELC, DOW, Wildlands Network and the Center for Biological Diversity.
Jett
In other words, you've finally realized the gig is up on your sad tale of wolves eating all of the wildlife off your private hunting reserve playground, so now you're changing your story. Makes perfect sense, except the wolves are still there at Alligator River NWR, and the other wildlife are still there too. Again, if you make extraordinary claims, Jett, you have to back them up with extraordinary evidence, and you have none.
 
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bigten

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
This may very well another case of "if you ignore the troll, he'll go away". Only one individuals "logistics" are valid, while others are discounted. Sorta like me calling in Monday morning sick with a stomach virus, but being called a liar unless I walk in the office and puke in the bosses lap..... I, as well as most here, know what's going on on my properties. Want to tell me I'm an idiot? No thanks.. I can't think of a better way to drive me away from your point of view than to discredit mine.....
 
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