Sticky "Red Wolf" restoration scandal

Mike Noles aka conman

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
Last evening, the local news reporter actually used the phrase "red wolf or coyote" as possible "suspects" in the cause of death of the "victim". This may get really ugly for the USFWS and red wolf advocates.
 

odie408

Ten Pointer
When they released the woofs here they said nutria would be their main diet. There was a nutria kill in the other lane of the road 10 feet from the bloody scene. Mrs. Hamilton came up on the kill and met this animal. This was not dogs. Time to end the fake woof program, let usfws pay for the damages and the 5 county area hunt coyote and woofs at night like the rest of the state.
 

ron.sutherland2

Four Pointer
Not being quiet, just trying to gather factual information before commenting about the awful demise of Mrs. Hamilton. Odie, can I ask the source of your info about the nutria, and about the wolf biologist warning people about a rabid animal? (feel free to message me via this site, or send an email).

If the nutria part is true, seems unlikely the canid was rabid, as rabid animals aren't known for eating much. It also doesn't make much sense to me that a wolf biologist would somehow find out that a wolf was rabid and not do anything about it (such as contact the Sheriff's dept). Rabies is typically confirmed only by testing dead animals, it isn't something that an agency biologist would somehow find out about back at the office (via telemetry?) and start sending out alerts. If the locals are the ones who reported a strange-acting animal, then I would expect those reports will surface before too long - surely they would have called animal control and the sheriff's office and the wildlife commission, or at least one of those agencies?

Assuming for the moment that part is just a distraction, if it was a non-rabid wolf or coyote, and if it was chowing down on a nutria it had killed before the arrival of the lady, that is at least more plausible. But a domestic dog could certainly have been feeding on a road-kill nutria, so that wouldn't prove much without further evidence. I'm trying to find out if more DNA tests are being done to confirm the identity of the attacking animal. The odds are still very strong it was domestic/feral, but we can't rule out wolf or coyote based on what is known so far.
 

Buxndiverdux

Old Mossy Horns
Not being quiet, just trying to gather factual information before commenting about the awful demise of Mrs. Hamilton. Odie, can I ask the source of your info about the nutria, and about the wolf biologist warning people about a rabid animal? (feel free to message me via this site, or send an email).

If the nutria part is true, seems unlikely the canid was rabid, as rabid animals aren't known for eating much. It also doesn't make much sense to me that a wolf biologist would somehow find out that a wolf was rabid and not do anything about it (such as contact the Sheriff's dept). Rabies is typically confirmed only by testing dead animals, it isn't something that an agency biologist would somehow find out about back at the office (via telemetry?) and start sending out alerts. If the locals are the ones who reported a strange-acting animal, then I would expect those reports will surface before too long - surely they would have called animal control and the sheriff's office and the wildlife commission, or at least one of those agencies?

Assuming for the moment that part is just a distraction, if it was a non-rabid wolf or coyote, and if it was chowing down on a nutria it had killed before the arrival of the lady, that is at least more plausible. But a domestic dog could certainly have been feeding on a road-kill nutria, so that wouldn't prove much without further evidence. I'm trying to find out if more DNA tests are being done to confirm the identity of the attacking animal. The odds are still very strong it was domestic/feral, but we can't rule out wolf or coyote based on what is known so far.


Maybe we should kill all the coywoofs and test them just to make sure they aren't rabid?
 

odie408

Ten Pointer
I have been trying to get to the bottom of the rabid woof story that has been around that community for a few weeks, back tracking it, but it was there, I didn't make it up but should have checked it out first. But I have talked to people that were on the scene and I'v seen pictures of the nutria in the other lane from the spot with canine tracks. I'm not sure about the rabid woof story yet but the nutria was there.
 
Last edited:

odie408

Ten Pointer
Not being quiet, just trying to gather factual information before commenting about the awful demise of Mrs. Hamilton. Odie, can I ask the source of your info about the nutria, and about the wolf biologist warning people about a rabid animal? (feel free to message me via this site, or send an email).

If the nutria part is true, seems unlikely the canid was rabid, as rabid animals aren't known for eating much. It also doesn't make much sense to me that a wolf biologist would somehow find out that a wolf was rabid and not do anything about it (such as contact the Sheriff's dept). Rabies is typically confirmed only by testing dead animals, it isn't something that an agency biologist would somehow find out about back at the office (via telemetry?) and start sending out alerts. If the locals are the ones who reported a strange-acting animal, then I would expect those reports will surface before too long - surely they would have called animal control and the sheriff's office and the wildlife commission, or at least one of those agencies?

Assuming for the moment that part is just a distraction, if it was a non-rabid wolf or coyote, and if it was chowing down on a nutria it had killed before the arrival of the lady, that is at least more plausible. But a domestic dog could certainly have been feeding on a road-kill nutria, so that wouldn't prove much without further evidence. I'm trying to find out if more DNA tests are being done to confirm the identity of the attacking animal. The odds are still very strong it was domestic/feral, but we can't rule out wolf or coyote based on what is known so far.


Maybe we should kill all the coywoofs and test them just to make sure they aren't rabid?
That area needs to be cleared of all wild canines if it was wild canines. They have had a taste of human blood. We need to be able to handle it like the rest of the state.
 

Buxndiverdux

Old Mossy Horns
That area needs to be cleared of all wild canines if it was wild canines. They have had a taste of human blood. We need to be able to handle it like the rest of the state.
I was attempting to quote the woofquack, but somehow the post got jacked up.
 

Mike Noles aka conman

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
As much as I dislike the USFWS red wolf program and especially those NGOs that are pocketing so much money from the cash cow and as much as I'd like to see the program ended and these silly "protections" removed, I just don't see this being a hybrid wolf or coyote as the culprit. I've encountered each multiple times and have arrived on the scene of each of them as they have tried to claim a deer that we were tracking. At no time have any of them been aggressive enough to attack or try to defend "their" kill and they quickly scattered and departed. However, I have had to kill two dogs that were at the end of our track because of their aggressive moves. One was a pit cross, the other was a plott hound. Never thought I'd defend these damn things, but I prefer that to the hysteria this will cause for those that walk/run for exercise in this entire rural area if it does turn out to be a "wild animal".
 

ron.sutherland2

Four Pointer
on the avoiding hysteria front, this is perhaps a decent time to point out that our trail cameras at Alligator River and Pocosin Lakes NWR's have revealed a surprising number of people who use those refuges for walking, running, horseback riding, and mountain biking, in addition to all of the hunters and birdwatchers. So far, despite the wolves and the enormous numbers of bears, there haven't been any wildlife attacks that I'm aware of. It's not that the wolves can't attack and injure a person (I've seen their teeth) it's just that empirically-speaking, they don't seem to want to.

If this does turn out to be the first red wolf attack, it is concerning, and I'm sure the wolf involved will be killed or at least permanently removed from the wild. But it wouldn't change the fact that the wolves didn't hurt anyone for the 32 years before that - compared to several people being killed by pet dogs each year in NC.

If it turns out to be a dog that killed the lady, I'm sure no one will be calling for all of the dogs in the county to be euthanized. Worth keeping that in mind...wild animals show individualistic behaviors as well, part of what makes them unpredictable.
 

Take 'em

Six Pointer
I agree with both of you, and no matter by what animal this dear lady was attacked and killed, it had to be terrible for her and still is for all her family and friends. One thing as a caution though. What you see out of animals during the day doesn't necessarily remain the same in the dark. This lady to my understanding did her walking before daylight each day. I hope we can get some honest answers to what animal actually attacked her.
 

Aythya

Eight Pointer
Summer of 2015 a man here in Raleigh called 911 for help after 3 yotes tracked and flanked him and his dog in NCSU's Schenk Forest. Chased and "Treed" him on a raised sewer main manhole access. Wake County Animal Control and NCSU Campus Police responded and the three yotes flanked the whole crew when they escorted him out. Aggressive, bold behavior and in the daytime.
Had a friend of mine have a similar encounter with a single yote on the NC Art Museum property. A single animal flanked him, seemingly taking a interest in the beagle he was walking. He picked the dog up and back tracked to a larger group of walkers on the green way path and the yote retreated. Two incidents just a couple of miles apart.

 

GSOHunter

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Summer of 2015 a man here in Raleigh called 911 for help after 3 yotes tracked and flanked him and his dog in NCSU's Schenk Forest. Chased and "Treed" him on a raised sewer main manhole access. Wake County Animal Control and NCSU Campus Police responded and the three yotes flanked the whole crew when they escorted him out. Aggressive, bold behavior and in the daytime.
Had a friend of mine have a similar encounter with a single yote on the NC Art Museum property. A single animal flanked him, seemingly taking a interest in the beagle he was walking. He picked the dog up and back tracked to a larger group of walkers on the green way path and the yote retreated. Two incidents just a couple of miles apart.

I've had similar experiences in Guilford County. They are used to seeing people and are not afraid. On one property shooting a single shot during deer season appears to be the dinner bell for them.
 

odie408

Ten Pointer
It seems like the information on what animal attacked Mrs. Hamilton has dried up. Is it a cover-up?
I guess we will have to wait for the DNA results to see. If they try to say it was the pits in quarantine now that they already cleared then I would call it a coverup.
 

ron.sutherland2

Four Pointer
That is actually a very good article, thanks for posting it. A few quotes I think are worth focusing on:

"As I have noted in previous articles, we are going to learn to live and coexist with coyotes in the future. There is no realistic alternative."
"And coyotes are not the only deer predators we are dealing with in Virginia. Black bears are capable deer fawn predators, and black bear populations are at all-time high numbers across Virginia. There are also bobcats."
"Years ago, in my annual deer season forecast articles, I began writing that the large increases seen in Virginia’s recent deer kill numbers were almost entirely due to elevated antlerless deer kill levels, and that elevated antlerless deer kill levels would eventually result in a decline in the statewide deer herd and deer kill numbers. Now we are seeing lower deer herds and lower deer kill numbers, and deer hunters are blaming coyotes."


From my perspective, looking across a few of the states I am familiar with, for a while in the 90's it seemed as though deer hunters needed to step up their doe-hunting game in order to try to reign in exploding deer populations. Then coyotes (and in some areas wolves) showed up, and that has produced an "assist" (to use a phrase from the article) such that the combination of buck hunting and wild carnivores could be enough to stabilize deer herds at sustainable levels.

Worth noting that some biologists are now also pointing towards wild carnivores as effective controls over contagious deer diseases such as CWD: https://www.publicnewsservice.org/2018-12-10/endangered-species-and-wildlife/predators-possible-allies-in-fight-against-chronic-wasting-disease/a64857-1
 

stiab

Ten Pointer
Contributor
"The current popular deer hunting literature is packed with articles demonizing coyotes, stating that they will be the end of deer hunting and deer management as we know it."...That is a gross overstatement and not worthy of being placed in a scholarly article.
Just a couple sentences earlier he describes survey results in which 86% of hunters thought that coyotes were having "an impact" on the herd, which is far short of claiming devastation.

I read the articles, and the hunting threads, and see that most hunters think coyotes are a factor. But to allege that we believe coyotes are the sole problem is such a misstatement that he loses credibility.
 

Aythya

Eight Pointer
Actually there was a study on Fort Bragg a few years ago that entailed tranquing and equipping pregnant does with satellite collars that monitored movement and birth canal implants that were activated when her fawn was born. When the collars on the does did not move for a specified period of time ( something much longer than a normal sleep cycle) a signal was transmitted and the doe could be located and cause of death determined ie; roadkill, yote kill etc.

When a fawn was born the birth canal implant would transmit when the correct body temp for the doe was no longer maintained and the fawn was located and also collared with a motion collar that would activate if there was no movement for a specified period of time . When fawn motion transmitters were activated the carcasses were located and the cause of the fawns death was determined.

Fawn mortality due to coyotes in this study was around 70% or so if I remember correctly. That is a devastating recruitment number for maintaining the deer population. Exactly what level of fawn depredation by coyotes is not a factor in deer management as we know it ?

Study also entailed trapping and collaring coyote pups for a dispersal study.The coyote dispersal part of the study had one yote make its way to western South Carolina, maybe Anderson area, one go up around Halifax, NC and another go up into northern Virginia outside of DC.
 

ron.sutherland2

Four Pointer
yes, coyotes eat fawns, and in areas where the coyotes are newly arrived, I am sure the mortality rates are higher for a few years. Coyotes have been in NY for many decades, and during that time the deer harvest rose considerably as the deer herd recovered. Here's an interesting article from Pennsylvania: https://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/WildlifeSpecies/White-tailedDeer/Pages/PredationDeerPopulation.aspx
"Predators kill most deer during their first summer (birth to approximately 12 weeks of age). We reported this in our own study during the summers of 2000 and 2001 when we radio-tagged over 200 fawns and monitored them closely to measure cause-specific mortality. Of the fawns killed by predators in our study, 84 percent were killed prior to 9 weeks of age. Coyotes and bears killed similar numbers of fawns. In the South Carolina study, 100 percent of fawns killed by predators were killed within 9 weeks of birth. Despite predation and other mortality causes, 57 to 72 percent of fawns were still alive in Pennsylvania at 9 weeks of age. "

In other news, Idaho had a wonderful elk and deer season, despite 750 or so of those super-canadian gray wolves:
 

ron.sutherland2

Four Pointer
Aythya, the extreme dispersal capacity of young coyotes is one of the strongest arguments for not relying on killing coyotes to protect livestock and pets. Just because you and your neighbor kill 6 coyotes one week, doesn't mean your corgi or your chickens will be safe the next week, as a new coyote may have moved in from South Carolina, as you say. Better to learn to live with them (with better fences, guard dogs, guard llamas, guard donkeys, etc), and reserve lethal control efforts for specific coyotes that cause too much trouble or act too aggressive or bold. I know some people enjoy killing clever wild dogs for the sheer blood-lust of it all ("stack 'em up!"), but for everyone else, you're better off adapting and getting on with your life - despite the rhetoric there are still plenty of deer and turkey in the woods.
 
Top