Sticky "Red Wolf" restoration scandal

JoeR

Six Pointer
That said, again I'll ask - is the validity of what constitutes a red wolf - scientific integrity - the real issue, or is it merely a tool to use to oppose the program - would yall oppose a bat, shrew, cougar ESA protected species reintroduced to the area?

thanks!
I certainly don't speak for everyone here, but I believe the argument is that you can't restore an animal that you can't prove lived here in the first place. Regardless of any map, I bet everyone would agree that some type of dog lived here long ago. However, if you can't prove which one did, you don't get to make one up in a zoo and release it.

Joe
 

stiab

Ten Pointer
Contributor
This is the map of the Dept of Interior...
That's a map of convenience that was done after the decision was made to launch the program in NC. Previous official government maps did not show NC as part of the native range. All this is well documented in the earlier pages of this thread, where there is a lot of information which would be helpful to you.
 

RedWolfGuy

Button Buck
I am very curious,,,,,how does a Design major do a research project on wolves? Must be an interesting design concept,,,,
Love to expand, woodmoose. Every problem comes down to some design solution. Previously I had researched right whales for example, they get tangled in lobster lines. A design solution I feel is effective is a lineless rig that is remotely called and floats to the surface when the boat is ready to pick them up.

Wolves, gray wolves for example, as I'm sure you're all aware are in limbo out west as to whether or not they can be shot for predation on livestock....there should be effective means for ranchers to non-lethally deter wolves from their herds...even in Africa ranchers and farmers living in huts are able to deter elephants and such from their crops non-lethally...we can't figure this out in America?

This is why I am interested from yall if you are using any deterrents if you don't want "woofs" on your property are you doing something?

My background is animation and AR. So what I have conceptualized is developing a simulation in which the 'players', with a limited in-game budget and simulated physics, chemistry, attempt to fortify their property or flocks. They then release this as a playable level. Other players, playing as a wolf, with sensory cues of that of a wolf attempt to get through....

Essentially the idea is crowdsourcing potentially effective deterrents, the conceptual outcome is similar to a biological puzzle game called Fold It, which has players folding proteins in new ways, which helps to identify protein structures...cure diseases...etc...
 

RedWolfGuy

Button Buck
I certainly don't speak for everyone here, but I believe the argument is that you can't restore an animal that you can't prove lived here in the first place. Regardless of any map, I bet everyone would agree that some type of dog lived here long ago. However, if you can't prove which one did, you don't get to make one up in a zoo and release it.

Joe
Thank you Joe. I understand this jibes with the collective sentiment of the forum...one on the questions I'm driving at is, is the resistance purely specific to the red wolf circumstance, or would yall resist any ESA protected reintroduction?
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
ove to expand, woodmoose. Every problem comes down to some design solution.

see that is your fundamental design analaysis flaw - the right whales and lobster lines is a fine example of a problem that needs a solution,,,,

the Experimental Non-essential coy animals placed on the Ablemarle peninsula are a MAN MADE problem with an easy fix,,,,admit the experiment was a fallure
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
r would yall resist any ESA protected reintroduction

belittleing peoples opinion by extending an opinion one one mammal to other ESA protected species is a BS way to debate,,,,

so therefore you are not fit to debate

have fun with your research
 

JoeR

Six Pointer
Thank you Joe. I understand this jibes with the collective sentiment of the forum...one on the questions I'm driving at is, is the resistance purely specific to the red wolf circumstance, or would yall resist any ESA protected reintroduction?
Again, speaking for myself, it is specific to this one.
Wolves in Yellowstone has been good for Yellowstone.
California Condors, awesome.

As far as what I've seen, this entire debate is about what has been posted here.
Are you just poking until you get a different answer, or trying to convince yourself of something else?

Joe
 

NCST8GUY

Frozen H20 Guy
Wrong again RWG, Look at the original range map by the Dept of Interior. Neither NC nor SC is "on the map" We know skins were traded all up and down the east coast, just like obsidian arrowheads (also not native). I'm sure there was some type of wolf here at some point, probably some type of eastern gray variety. All we know for sure is that the "woof", forced upon the folks of NC is nothing like the original "pre-Columbian gray wolf hybrid. We also know from the fossil record that camels also existed here, maybe the USFWS should try to re-introduce them as well

How is a desert animal supposed to become "reborn" in an area that is constantly flooded? On purpose?
 

stiab

Ten Pointer
Contributor
This is why I am interested from yall if you are using any deterrents if you don't want "woofs" on your property are you doing something?
Red wolves = coyotes. Coyotes inhabit every place they desire to be: cities, towns, swamps, interstate highway interchanges, salt water islands, there are no limits. It sounds as if you are scolding a relatively small group of farmers and landowners in eastern NC for not developing a deterrent that no one else has found. Are you personally familiar with how vast and remote the 5 county area is?
 

odie408

Ten Pointer
They have been trapped and returned to usfws only to be caught again in the same place in the same week. USFWS said if you didn't want them they would remove them, he'll they wont even keep them when you return them.
 

Aythya

Eight Pointer
RedWolfGuy read Economics and the ESA - http://www.umich.edu/~esupdate/library/97.01-02/shogren.html Pay particular attention to the term "contingent valuation".

Reintroducing bats or shrews that have a particular niche, a prey base that does not overlap or impinge with existing species that managed not to be extirpated from an area for the past several decades or centuries despite extensive habitat change from roads farming , etc . Maybe. Depends on the impact on the land owners loss of use of their property, etc.

Reintroducing apex predators that require 150 square mile home ranges into a landscape that was a wilderness centuries ago but is now a subdivided, agricultural complex interspersed with residences, farm animals, pets, highways, etc. not just no-hell no.

As to eco-safaris for selectively bred red coyotes in northeastern NC perhaps you're unfamiliar with their habits. Perhaps you've never seen a pocosin. They don't roam open prairies and grasslands like around Yellowstone and tundra in Alaska in front of waiting lines of tourist vehicles. Red or regular colored coyotes are seldom seen. Heck the woof howling tours conducted by the USFWS on a"desolate refuge road" are within earshot of the woof pens. They don't even try to get the free ranging ones to howl.
 

Take 'em

Six Pointer
"That said, again I'll ask - is the validity of what constitutes a red wolf - scientific integrity - the real issue, or is it merely a tool to use to oppose the program - would yall oppose a bat, shrew, cougar ESA protected species reintroduced to the area?"

It seems you forget that way back in 1987 when this experimental wolf was launched here that many people went along with the program initially because of the promises made (laws written) by UFSWS, and believing this was a real and viable red wolf. The late Fred Bonner told me that back then he was a very integral proponent of establishing the "red wolf" on ARNWR and the Dare Co. bombing range. He later turned completely against it because of the lies perpetuated by USFWS, NGO's, and the failure to follow their own regulations. One example, USFWS knew the darting collars didn't work, but sold the concept to the public that these animals could be zapped and put back where they were supposed to be.

I do have one question for you before I end this failed experiment. How are the lineless lobster traps working out in the "real world" of a salt water environment?
 

odie408

Ten Pointer
Another collared woof has been returned to usfws, will they keep it or will they return it? I would bet it is back where it was trapped with in a couple days.
 

odie408

Ten Pointer
I will be busy checking and settings traps. I am trying to help the population boom by taking a few out. I really don't see how that could work but I am willing to give it a try.
 

bigten

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
I'm sure dissenters would be welcomed with open arms. I'd LOVE for you guys to register and attend (if allowed).... Please keep us posted on how that goes. This could get interesting.
 

Take 'em

Six Pointer
Meeting not until Jan. 19 according to circular. I wouldn't go if they paid me, but I expect the pro-woofers will be there in force making it look like all of eastern NC is in favor of the red wolf restoration fiasco.
 

odie408

Ten Pointer
Meeting not until Jan. 19 according to circular. I wouldn't go if they paid me, but I expect the pro-woofers will be there in force making it look like all of eastern NC is in favor of the red wolf restoration fiasco.
Ok my bad, if I'm not to busy next weekend coexisting, I might just go.
 

ron.sutherland2

Four Pointer
Hi folks, those of you in Hyde County (or Washington, Tyrrell, or Dare) are definitely welcome to attend the listening session this Saturday January 19, 9-11am at the Hyde County Davis Center. And no, we're not trying to stack the deck with pro-wolf advocates. We are genuinely interested in your (polite) opinions and direct experiences on the subject, and we figure that an in-person meeting with breakfast is a better way to have that conversation than an online forum. Each person will get a chance to speak, and all attendees (who aren't obscene, disruptive, etc.) will be eligible for some pretty decent door prizes at the end. We will not be lecturing anyone about red wolf biology, just listening and making sure everyone gets a chance to weigh in. ***If you want food, please RSVP to carly (at) wildlandsnetwork (dot) org, ideally by Thursday.
 

Greg

Old Mossy Horns
Red Woof Guy,

Why don't you and SELC/DOW work on establishing a fake red wolf release program in Orange County and then check back in with us. Until then, pound sand...

Sincerely,
Jett Ferebee
Yeah ... thanks ...
I'm just wondering how the liberal idgits here in Orange County would react to that?
NIMBY?
Or would they think it was a WONDERFULLY SPLENDID idea?
 

Eric Revo

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
How is a desert animal supposed to become "reborn" in an area that is constantly flooded? On purpose?
Evolution tells us that they develop fins and gills and adapt over billions of years.....:p Maybe this was where the red wolves went ? Maybe they aren't extinct at all, they just adapted to their environment.
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