"Red Wolf" restoration scandal

[Mike Noles aka conman]

because the majority (90% by some polls) of people in the US value keeping endangered species from going extinct. If you're in the minority on this, maybe join a victims group or something?

The red wolf has already been declared biologically extinct in the wild and there's no conclusive scientific research that the animals being forced on 100% of the people meets the ESA requirements to be classified as endangered. That supposed 90% are the little knowing, bleeding heart, tree huggers that you donation hungry NPOs prey on and feed your tear jerking pictures and propaganda. I would suggest that your cash cow is on the ropes and the whole of you will soon be the clamoring "victims group".

 

[woodmoose]

because the majority (90% by some polls) of people in the US value keeping endangered species from going extinct. If you're in the minority on this, maybe join a victims group or something?

And based on my experience with most "people", 99% of that 90% wouldn't successfully ID a reddish wolf from a coyote or even many dog breeds,,

 

[FireDuck401]

And based on my experience with most "people", 99% of that 90% wouldn't successfully ID a reddish wolf from a coyote or even many dog breeds,,

And yet they scream the loudest....

 

[bigten]

let's say I post some pictures of hunters killing, dressing, and eating deer, and then make some wild claims about how the deer are being wiped out by vicious and ruthless hunters, perhaps flying a plane around an environmentalist or animal rights conference or two telling people to "google the great deer killers scandal". Let's say I also point out that the NC Wildlife Resources Commission is perniciously doing what it can to promote hunting and recruit and train even more hunters, using money that could be going instead to buying precious deer habitat. What would you say to counter those claims? You'd point out that there is an obvious difference between eating deer and causing the deer population to collapse. And then, in defense of hunting (which as I've said before I'm not opposed to, this is just a metaphor), you'd likely also make some claims about how hunting is necessary to keep the deer population under control, that without hunting the deer would eat all of their food and starve, etc. etc.

On the other hand, if someone here posts a picture of a coyote or wolf with a fawn in its mouth, there seems to be this general knee jerk reaction to assume that a wildlife disaster is happening right before your eyes. And I've also noticed a strong tendency to sensationalize the way that wild carnivores kill their prey, to make it as unsavory and barbaric-sounding as possible.

My point is that deer hunters and wild carnivores are pretty much in the same boat, you're both helping to control the deer, you both like the way deer taste (as do I, I'll admit) and you both come to grips with killing other animals in order to feed yourselves and your children. Even with coyotes and a handful of wolves, there are still plenty of deer to go around, and the perceived "us or them"/"our way of life is in danger" rhetoric seems way overblown.

You have no idea of my issue(s) in this situation. In all honesty, I do not live in the affected area, but I am friends with others that do.

Those people aren't the ones directly affected by the program. They don't know what really happens. I bet that 90% drops considerably if they had such a program dropped in their backyard.

Not only that, but if they knew their support was going for a genetically engineered hybrid instead of they are told, support would plumit. Who wants to financially support ""Frankenstein" projects?. My guess is not many, if they knew the truth instead of the spin....

 

[Mike Noles aka conman]

Actually, they were phenotypically engineered. Of over 400 trapped animals in the Louisiana/Texas Delta, 14 were chosen because they "looked" the most like old pictures of a red wolf. Any guess what happened to those trapped animals that didn't fit the mold?

 

[odie408]

I wonder how many of those animals they killed for not measuring up to what they thought a red wolf should look like were the real thing.

 

[dobber]

Brought to you by scientific research

 

[Mike Noles aka conman]

I wonder how many of those animals they killed for not measuring up to what they thought a red wolf should look like were the real thing.

All of them plus hundreds of pups born over the years deemed "hybrid" litters.

 

[darenative]

Looks like ol' ron got all mutt hurt over the truth. Mighty hard to refute facts

 

[odie408]

All of them plus hundreds of pups born over the years deemed "hybrid" litters.

Oh, those little pups met the blount end of a hammer or a 5 gallon bucket of water. All because they didn't have the right measurements. Or did they?

 

[ellwoodjake]

because the majority (90% by some polls) of people in the US value keeping endangered species from going extinct. If you're in the minority on this, maybe join a victims group or something?

Red wolves are in no danger of becoming extinct. As long as we have gray wolves and coyotes, we can create them at any time. Also, as long as their ranges overlap or abut, these hybrids will always crop up.

 

[QuietButDeadly]

Endangered species and hybrid mutts are entirely different things. The folks running this fiasco have killed more hybrid mutts than they have saved because they did not look like they thought their invented species should look. I have yet to see the science that proves there ever was a red wolf species. The DNA evidence is pretty clear that what is being protected is a hybrid mutt.

 

[Eric Revo]

https://www.facebook.com/LindseyGre...851.1364243820344040/1437577376344017/?type=3

This was supposedly taken in Cades Cove....a National Park. Look familiar?

 

[Jett]

Red Wolf Alert

Here are the results of a recent coyote attack in Castalia, North Carolina.
The owner woke up to find a pack of coyotes attacking their donkey. They chased them off and have contacted some trappers and hunters to deal with the problem.

And yes, our USFWS has for over 30 years released throughout our State 75% coyote / 25% gray wolf coywoofs (now pimped as "Carolina" red woofs) that were phenotypically engineered and bred in a zoo in Tacoma, Washington under the false pretense that they are somehow an endangered species and are native to our State.

So much FAKE NEWS spewed by nonprofits intent on fund raising to pay their salaries and attorneys. It is all about the $$$$$$$$$$$. The red woof that was released in our State may be manufactured at any time. The recipe is simple, 3 parts coyote and 1 part gray wolf......

 

[Buxndiverdux]

Dang. My trail cams have “caught” yotes cruising in pairs and got a few pics with 3 roaming together. Looks like they are pack hunters like wolves when they need to be.

 

[bigten]

They're now making the news with their fake narrative. Watched a segment a few minutes ago on WECT with Mr sotherland yapping off about how their make belive red wolves were doing no harm. Less so than whitetail deer anyway. It's all a money scam now trying to tug at the hearts of tree huggers and anyone else that has no clue of the actual truth of what has happened...

 

[Jett]

Red Wolf Alert

Well, Ronnie is just doing the job he is paid to do regarding the fake woof. See it is a personal money maker for him also. If the fake woof program ends on his watch, so may his employment. Follow the $$$$$$$$

https://wildlandsnetwork.org/person/ron-sutherland/

https://wildlandsnetwork.org/campaigns/red-wolves/

 

[Mike Noles aka conman]

Y'all need to quit with the pseudonyms for the "red wolf". Google search doesn't recognize the pseudonyms and directs people to the NPOs before seeing the most active red wolf site on the www. We all know, as does the true animal scientists and geneticists, that the true red wolf is extinct and the animal now called a red wolf that's being forced on the uninformed is a phenotypically, human designed hybrid built just for the money programs of the NPOs and USFWS grants.

 

[dobber]

It is a color phase, but if not looking forward to the "grayish with a black tip tail, one ear a darker grey than the other ear" wolf program to start up

 

[ron.sutherland2]

Red wolves are in no danger of becoming extinct. As long as we have gray wolves and coyotes, we can create them at any time. Also, as long as their ranges overlap or abut, these hybrids will always crop up.

Turns out to be harder than that to get gray wolves and coyotes to mate, which is one of the core reasons I'm skeptical of that recent hybrid origin story for red wolves. David Mech had to use artificial insemination to cross coyotes with grays, and even then only ended up with one litter. In the entire Western US, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that I'm aware of in the field that gray wolves are mating with coyotes, now that the wolves have returned and historically, when the gray wolf was being driven extinct (and the coyote, quite notably, was not). So if red wolves were formed by the last few southeastern gray wolves mating with arriving coyotes, it was not a result that was replicated in the west even though there were plenty of coyotes available. http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0088861

 

[ron.sutherland2]

F

Red Wolf Alert

Well, Ronnie is just doing the job he is paid to do regarding the fake woof. See it is a personal money maker for him also. If the fake woof program ends on his watch, so may his employment. Follow the $$$$$$$$

https://wildlandsnetwork.org/person/ron-sutherland/

https://wildlandsnetwork.org/campaigns/red-wolves/

Follow the $$$ is great advice coming from a wealthy real estate developer! But sorry, that is not what motivates me, nor any of the other nonprofit conservationists that I know. Projecting your instincts on to us is just faulty logic. Speaking of your instincts, what is your angle in all of this, Jett? US Rep. Rouzer has apparently been told by someone that red wolves are getting in the way of developing private land on the Peninsula. I'm pretty sure that isn't true, but perhaps you know better?

 

[ron.sutherland2]

They're now making the news with their fake narrative. Watched a segment a few minutes ago on WECT with Mr sotherland yapping off about how their make belive red wolves were doing no harm. Less so than whitetail deer anyway. It's all a money scam now trying to tug at the hearts of tree huggers and anyone else that has no clue of the actual truth of what has happened...

I hesitate to ask such an open-ended question, bigten, but what harm are the red wolves doing? There is no evidence of a wildlife disaster, no evidence that not being able to shoot coyotes at night has had any impact on the coyote population. Only 7 confirmed cases of livestock depredation in 30 years. Several people on this forum have admitted that their beef is with the federal government, not with the wolves. But, I would love to hear your perspective on the damage that has been done by red wolves.

 

[ron.sutherland2]

One other thing, I find it fairly ironic that many of you keep complaining about the cost to taxpayers of the red wolf. As I showed previously, the per capita cost of the entire 30-year history of the red wolf program has been about one dime, not one dime per year, just a dime. And guess what, the small number of people on the Albemarle Peninsula paid that dime, and then had the federal government invest much of the 30 million locally, much of it going to staff time and flights to track the wolves. The FWS employees go and spend their money and it spreads in the local economy. Ask your County Commissioners about this. It is the same logic as to why so many places are so desperate to keep their military bases - that influx of federal money is what feeds the local economy, especially when crop prices are down. Since no one has been able to establish any real damages from the red wolf program that are worth adding up on a calculator, it seems very safe to assume the red wolf has been a net positive economic engine for the Albemarle Peninsula, and that is even without accounting for the wildlife watchers who come to the area and hope to see wolves among the bears, bobcats, swans, eagles, etc.

 

[ron.sutherland2]

don't interpret this the wrong way, I'm not from NY and have only been up there a few times. But, it is worth pointing out here to those of you who are so afraid of the impact of coyotes on deer, that New York state has had coyotes since literally the 1920's, and yet their deer harvest rose for 5 decades in a row, 1950's to 2000's. The #'s of deer have recently leveled off, at least temporarily, which according to one of my colleagues is consistent with them hitting carrying capacity. But if you look at the attached graph, it is hard to see any evidence that coyotes did much of anything to control the deer herd. Here in North Carolina, the coyotes showed up much more recently, after decades of similar growth in the huntable deer population, and so the timing of the stabilization of the deer herd is easier to blame on coyotes, when it likely has nothing to do with them. In western NC, where the coyotes have been the longest, since the 80's, they are now seeing the deer harvests go up, not down. I'm not arguing coyotes don't eat deer, clearly they have a taste for fawns and roadkill and maybe the occasional adult deer with a bum leg or sick from hemorrhagic fever. But the evidence that even tens of thousands of coyotes has some sort of "disastrous" impact on the deer population is pretty scant. And then there are wild turkey - last year (2017) was the record harvest for turkey, decades after coyotes were declared statewide. The only wildlife disaster going on in North Carolina right now is the fact that the bulldozers have started up again and we're losing thousands and thousands of acres of forest to development. Can't blame the coyotes for that - and of course the coyote doesn't seem to mind the suburbs anyway, and will be here long after most of you have lost any room to hunt thanks to the real estate developers. Here's most of the deer data from NY, the rest to 2017 is on their website: https://dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/deerhist.pdf

 

[ron.sutherland2]

since bigten brought up my point about the costs and dangers of white-tailed deer, here are some data from the NC DOT, covering six years from 2008-2013. For the 5-county red wolf recovery area, during those six years there were a minimum of 152 human injuries due to deer-vehicle collisions, and $6.25 million in property damages to vehicles. Extrapolate that out to the 30 years of the red wolf recovery program, and it could be that deer have injured close to 750 people and caused $30 million in property damages during the same time that the wolves haven't hurt anyone (admittedly there have been a small number of wolves that have dented front ends of cars, but nothing even remotely on the scale of the deer). According to the DOT, half or fewer of deer-vehicle crashes are reported, so the actual damage costs are likely much higher. All of this is consistent with my own experiences driving at dusk from Alligator River NWR to Columbia, there are deer all over the side of the road. So deer have very real costs. You could also ask the farmers down there who are still getting depredation permits to shoot the deer out of season to control their crop damages, they would tell you deer have costs too.

 

[Jett]

Red Wolf Alert

Ron,

Here is my angle. I worked hard, took risks and applied myself and was fortunate enough to realize a lifelong dream of owning my very own farm to use exactly how I please. I did not buy my farm for USFWS and "conservation groups" to play your foolish make believe red wolf games on. End of story. I am sorry that my occupation and your concept of my success offends you. Do you need to go to a safe place now?

If you feel so strongly about your desires and convictions, why don't you too buy your own land to play your silly woof games on. I've not seen you or any "conservation group" ask for USFWS to dump fake woofs in your neighborhood.

By the way, it is nice to see you are back on the clock and working hard for The Wildlands Network tonight. Maybe if you work hard enough, you too can buy some land to use as you please.

Sincerely,
Jett Ferebee

 

[bigten]

I hesitate to ask such an open-ended question, bigten, but what harm are the red wolves doing? There is no evidence of a wildlife disaster, no evidence that not being able to shoot coyotes at night has had any impact on the coyote population. Only 7 confirmed cases of livestock depredation in 30 years. Several people on this forum have admitted that their beef is with the federal government, not with the wolves. But, I would love to hear your perspective on the damage that has been done by red wolves.

I think I'll just defer the answer to that to the people that live in the affected area that have had their lives disrupted by this program. Or, maybe you could just go back to the earlier posts in this very thread and read it again. Open minded if possible.

 

[ron.sutherland2]

Red Wolf Alert

Ron,

Here is my angle. I worked hard, took risks and applied myself and was fortunate enough to realize a lifelong dream of owning my very own farm to use exactly how I please. I did not buy my farm for USFWS and "conservation groups" to play your foolish make believe red wolf games on. End of story. I am sorry that my occupation and your concept of my success offends you. Do you need to go to a safe place now?

If you feel so strongly about your desires and convictions, why don't you too buy your own land to play your silly woof games on. I've not seen you or any "conservation group" ask for USFWS to dump fake woofs in your neighborhood.

By the way, it is nice to see you are back on the clock and working hard for The Wildlands Network tonight. Maybe if you work hard enough, you too can buy some land to use as you please.

Sincerely,
Jett Ferebee

All sounds good Jett, but then why did you buy your hunting preserve right next to a federal wildlife refuge in the middle of the red wolf recovery area, 9 years after the start of the red wolf program? 95 other counties to choose from in North Carolina, but instead you "came to the nuisance" and started pitching your fit. Did your realtor not tell you about the wolves?

 

[dobber]

Ron, you didn't mention anything about the make believe critters you are hybridizing, least you could have done was defend that a little.
Heck even Jurasic park movies defended their stance each movie on their "program"

 

[Jett]

Red Wolf Alert

Ron,

I'll buy land wherever I want to and for whatever reason I want to. I owe you no explanation. It is none of your business and my farm is far from a hunting preserve.

USFWS 10j rules committed to private landowners in these five counties that their fake woofs would remain on their land and would be removed from private land at the owner's requested. This was a lie. I guess I am at fault for believing USFWS was being honest with the landowners in these five counties. I will never believe them again.

Buy your own land and see how you feel when someone else takes control of it for their own purposes.
Go back to your safe place if I hurt your feelings by not letting you and your cohorts use my land to propogate a nonnative invasive man made top predator. It was USFWS David Rabon and RWC orchestrating with SELC to take away private landowner protections that were promised by USFWS that has led us to this point. You "conservation guys" need to look in the mirror to see who has really led this program to its appropriate end.