Posting Creek Banks / Posting Public Land

[nchawkeye]

1) GIS lines from apps like OnxHunt are often wrong...In other words the GIS does not always match the survey...I've seen if off by 100 feet...

2) Rivers don't have easements...Power companies and gas line companies have easements to maintain their lines...As we all know some idiots think these power lines were put there so they can ride their four wheelers across properties or gain access to others properties, etc...

3) It's fine to take a boat down a river and fish, but you should assume that someone owns the land that is beside the river...

4) If you cannot take a boat down the river (or creek) you can pretty much bet the survey runs to the middle of the creek...This means you do not need to be in that area or you are trespassing...

 

[Loganwayne]

Take a float down the new river, posted signs everywhere along the banks, because the properties end on the banks. Is the river not some sort of “easement”?


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that statement is not true. i can think of two properties that i have access to that the property line is center of waterway.

 

[JONOV]

Road. Like other rivers in the area, some that have ramps, when you click on info for ownership, it’s blank.

I checked a few of the deeds and some say “bank of river”, some say “XX feet from centerline of river”, and some say from “center of river”. Most of which match up to the lines. But then that still leaves the question of ownership.


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If you can access the water publicly, IE a boat ramp, then usually it's going to be navigable waters (like the Neuse River,) and the river is public to the high water mark. If you're talking about a stream, it gets a lot more complicated.

 

[stevewes2004]

that statement is not true. i can think of two properties that i have access to that the property line is center of waterway.

After looking through some of the deeds, you are right. Some properties have stakes right in the creek, some don’t.


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[stevewes2004]

If you can access the water publicly, IE a boat ramp, then usually it's going to be navigable waters (like the Neuse River,) and the river is public to the high water mark. If you're talking about a stream, it gets a lot more complicated.

Gotcha. This obviously is falling on the more complicated side and it’s not worth pursuing.

I appreciate the response.


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[la angler]

I'm a timber appraiser by profession. GIS is a good tool but it's best to look at the deed of the property and hopefully a survey map may be located. Usually property lines are the center of a stream but may have a concrete marker or iron pipe on the bank that's on line. Also worth mentioning I see lots of purple paint where it's not supposed to be and I think on purpose many times.

 

[CRC]

Contact the game warden for the area and talk to them

 

[Mack in N.C.]

I'm a timber appraiser by profession. GIS is a good tool but it's best to look at the deed of the property and hopefully a survey map may be located. Usually property lines are the center of a stream but may have a concrete marker or iron pipe on the bank that's on line. Also worth mentioning I see lots of purple paint where it's not supposed to be and I think on purpose many times.

This^^ I have seen neighbors take down gameland signs and put up posted signs. of course they dont put a name on the posted sign. they just dont want someone accessing public property near their house. very common on one section at harris lake.

 

[stevewes2004]

This^^ I have seen neighbors take down gameland signs and put up posted signs. of course they dont put a name on the posted sign. they just dont want someone accessing public property near their house. very common on one section at harris lake.

Hence the main reason I have asked the question on this thread...

Thanks


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[oldest school]

This^^ I have seen neighbors take down gameland signs and put up posted signs. of course they dont put a name on the posted sign. they just dont want someone accessing public property near their house. very common on one section at harris lake.

and jordan. and any other COE property. they use it at their convenience but dont want the rest of us on it. Those pesky border paint jobs though ruin the effect dont they?

 

[JONOV]

Hence the main reason I have asked the question on this thread...

Thanks


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Are you talking about fishing or hunting, and are you talking about wading a stream, or floating it?

 

[CRC]

Sounds like he's saying folks are posting parts of the Dan River game lands

https://www.ncwildlife.org/Portals/0/Hunting/Game-Land-Maps/Piedmont/Dan-River.pdf

 

[nccatfisher]

Sounds like he's saying folks are posting parts of the Dan River game lands

https://www.ncwildlife.org/Portals/0/Hunting/Game-Land-Maps/Piedmont/Dan-River.pdf

That isn't what the pic he showed was of.

 

[stevewes2004]

Are you talking about fishing or hunting, and are you talking about wading a stream, or floating it?

All of the above, but the example in the picture would be wading.. and as CRC said, parts of Dan River are posted going from OnX and GIS. However, learning how off lines can be it would have to be validated by the deed. One of the lines on Dan River is way off, like 100+ yds.


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[stevewes2004]

That isn't what the pic he showed was of.

Correct, that was just an example. Generic theme of this thread was about people posting public property. Either to try and keep people out or simply because they don’t know their property lines..


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[lasttombstone]

Here is the earlier thread regarding much of the same subject if you haven't seen it. Just some more information and opinions on the subject which may or may not apply in your instance.

Western NC River Access

Hello, I've been a keen observer of the site for a while and actually before I moved to Raleigh, NC about 5 years ago I used this site to navigate my move from Portland, OR. It was a real treat learning that there were Kokanee in this state, a fish we treasured out west. It's been great...

nchuntandfish.com

 

[Justin]

I love this game. Got a neighbor that’s “letting” me put my driveway on his property. I tried to have the conversation with him that there’s an unopened state ROW all the way across the back of our properties, to the street that our properties come out on. GIS shows it stopping at my property line and his property nosing in on what would be the remainder of the “nonexistent” ROW...
“GIS is right and yours and your dad’s deeds are wrong”

“ha OK”
Poor fool doesn’t realize I’ve got a copy of his deed and the deeds prior to that, of his land, and can actually read them . I’ve got too many battles to fight right now with my house being built, but I assure you, one day, my bottled up “not today” will come out and make this fool look like an idiot.

 

[41magnum]

If you KNOW there is an easement, which kind?

Easement in gross? or

Prescriptive? (this is what OURS is) or

Appurtenant? or

Implied? or

Easement of necessity?

 

[JONOV]

All of the above, but the example in the picture would be wading.. and as CRC said, parts of Dan River are posted going from OnX and GIS. However, learning how off lines can be it would have to be validated by the deed. One of the lines on Dan River is way off, like 100+ yds.


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Why don't you call the local game warden and ask. I've done that, specifically asked "Can I hunt on this river in that location assuming I access it from a public ROW like a road/bridge.

 

[alt1001]

Water ways in NC that are considered navigable, are state property. From what I have read on court cases, the property line is where the water line is currently at or at for the specified period. This makes dry ground the adjoining property owners. Flooded property I would think would still be private property.

Navigable waterways are held in public trust up to the high water mark. The high water mark was used in coastal scenarios where the tide produced a defined and consistent reference point. They adopted the same standard out west where rivers due to snowmelt, produced an easily defined high water mark.

The problem with most of the Appalachian streams is that they have neither consistent snowmelt or tidal changes, so the high water laws have become a grey area here. Currently I know the NCWRC enforces it just as you stated, if you are on dry ground in a mountain stream, you are on private property.

 

[alt1001]

that statement is not true. i can think of two properties that i have access to that the property line is center of waterway.

This all depends on if the water is deemed navigable or not. If the water is deemed navigable, then the waterway is held in public trust and the private ownership stops at the riverbank. If it isn't, then private ownership extends to the center-line. Most mountain streams are enforced as non-navigable which is why the NCWRC has worked tirelessly with landowners to allow fishing to the public.

https://www.ncwildlife.org/Portals/0/Learning/documents/Species/TroutAnglingOpportunitiesonPrivateLands.pdf

NC politics really screwed up the navigable laws when they decided to form their own standard versus simply applying the Army COE standards like most other states. The Army COE says that if a waterway is or has ever been used as a commercial thoroughfare then it is navigable. Simple enough. NC came along later and stated that if you can float it in any watercraft, then it is navigable "in fact". That standard itself was founded to address issues in coastal waterways, but it caused a plethora of other issues in mountain streams. For example, when does NC's navigability laws stop in the mountains? If I am in a kayak and suddenly start dragging bottom and have to get out and walk it over a shallow riffle, did the navigability of that stretch of stream suddenly stop? Per NC laws, yes. So does that open up the opportunity for individual stretches of the same river to be deemed as navigable and non-navigable? Conversely, if on a very small stream that is sandwiched on private land, I can find a hole big enough to place a inner-tube, can I camp out there with no repercussions from the landowner? Per NC law, yes. In legal sense, NC really muddied the waters for us boys out west, luckily I can say that the NCWRC enforces it with some common sense measures.

 

[Loganwayne]

This all depends on if the water is deemed navigable or not. If the water is deemed navigable, then the waterway is held in public trust and the private ownership stops at the riverbank. If it isn't, then private ownership extends to the center-line. Most mountain streams are enforced as non-navigable which is why the NCWRC has worked tirelessly with landowners to allow fishing to the public.

https://www.ncwildlife.org/Portals/0/Learning/documents/Species/TroutAnglingOpportunitiesonPrivateLands.pdf

NC politics really screwed up the navigable laws when they decided to form their own standard versus simply applying the Army COE standards like most other states. The Army COE says that if a waterway is or has ever been used as a commercial thoroughfare then it is navigable. Simple enough. NC came along later and stated that if you can float it in any watercraft, then it is navigable "in fact". That standard itself was founded to address issues in coastal waterways, but it caused a plethora of other issues in mountain streams. For example, when does NC's navigability laws stop in the mountains? If I am in a kayak and suddenly start dragging bottom and have to get out and walk it over a shallow riffle, did the navigability of that stretch of stream suddenly stop? Per NC laws, yes. So does that open up the opportunity for individual stretches of the same river to be deemed as navigable and non-navigable? Conversely, if on a very small stream that is sandwiched on private land, I can find a hole big enough to place a inner-tube, can I camp out there with no repercussions from the landowner? Per NC law, yes. In legal sense, NC really muddied the waters for us boys out west, luckily I can say that the NCWRC enforces it with some common sense measures.

Yeah. I’ve called the GW over these issues, I’ve got a couple rivers that you can float but may drag bottom in some places and he said he wouldn’t make a big deal out of it if someone called on me for pulling a boat across a shallow spot.


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[alt1001]

Yeah. I’ve called the GW over these issues, I’ve got a couple rivers that you can float but may drag bottom in some places and he said he wouldn’t make a big deal out of it if someone called on me for pulling a boat across a shallow spot.


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Exactly, but the problem still exists in what that river is classified as because then it rolls over into a landowner rights issue. I know how the NCWRC will enforce it and I don't envy them because they were never given a clear answer for us mountain boys. They might not get on to us for dragging a kayak across a shallow shoal but a landowner might see that as non-navigable which would in theory, give him ownership to the middle of the waterway or the entire waterway if he owns both sides. Like I said, NC really screwed this up. They should have just stuck with the Army COE standards.

 

[CRC]

The Army COE says that if a waterway is or has ever been used as a commercial thoroughfare then it is navigable.

How does that apply to most of NC's trout streams?

 

[alt1001]

How does that apply to most of NC's trout streams?

It doesn't because NC decided to set it's own standard in 1995 in a case over a marshland and tidal creek dispute. I'm certain they didn't think of the repercussions it would have on mountain streams.

 

[alt1001]

The NC DOJ has admitted that under the current law, it doesn't know at which point navigability ends and landowner rights begin (especially as it pertains to WNC):

"It is not possible to say with confidence how far up a watercourse public rights may extend. At some point, navigability "in the usual and ordinary course" ceases, and public trust rights give way to those of private property. As the Supreme Court noted in State v. Baum, "[w]e are not prepared to say that a land owner would be liable to criminal prosecution because he happened to put a watergate across a creek up which otherwise an idle hunter might be able to pole a canoe. . ." 128 N.C. at 604."

Use of Navigable-in-Fact Streams without Consent of Riparian Owners - NCDOJ

January 20, 1998 Richard B. Whisnant General Counsel N. C. Department of Environment and Natural Resources 512 North Salisbury Street Raleigh, North Carolina 27604 RE: Advisory Opinion: Use of navigable-in-fact streams without consent of riparian owners. Dear Mr. Whisnant: On August 27, 1997 you...

ncdoj.gov

 

[Loganwayne]

How does that apply to most of NC's trout streams?

If they stayed with army COE every or nearly every trout stream would be considered navigable water since they floated logs down basically every waterway in WNC at some point and time


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[alt1001]

If they stayed with army COE every or nearly every trout stream would be considered navigable water since they floated logs down basically every waterway in WNC at some point and time


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That’s a topic that’s been brought up in other states and if I remember correctly, that’s not the case as the waterway had to exist in its natural state. Considering most local streams had to have dams built in the headwaters to create a reservoir which was later released to generate enough flow to move logs, that wouldn’t apply except on a select few locally.

If I can find the old court opinions on that, I’ll post them.

 

[SamCo89]

I love this game. Got a neighbor that’s “letting” me put my driveway on his property. I tried to have the conversation with him that there’s an unopened state ROW all the way across the back of our properties, to the street that our properties come out on. GIS shows it stopping at my property line and his property nosing in on what would be the remainder of the “nonexistent” ROW...
“GIS is right and yours and your dad’s deeds are wrong”

“ha OK”
Poor fool doesn’t realize I’ve got a copy of his deed and the deeds prior to that, of his land, and can actually read them . I’ve got too many battles to fight right now with my house being built, but I assure you, one day, my bottled up “not today” will come out and make this fool look like an idiot.

Yep, our lease is very similar. There's about 10ac that the neighbor swears is his, "My daddy showed me these when I was 10 yrs old".. But 3 surveys our LO had done, shows that it's actually his.Also on the North end of the property, GIS shows the property line on the neighbors bank, instead of middle of the creek as per the deed/plat map.

 

[josh]

Ive seen that situation before, yes the online resources or apps are not always correct

In that situation I’d probably try it if it wasn’t posted but if it is move on