Muzzle loading loads and rifles

thoma018

Button Buck
I'm trying to get a new perspective on muzzleloading and what you have found to be most accurate load--powder/projectile/primer in your particular rifle and what rifle are you shooting it in. I'd appreciate your experiences and what you have found that works well. I have muzzle loaded in past with an early generation Knight and currently have a thompson center ENCORE 209x50 Magnum that i need to work a load up for. The most accurate load i used was hogdon PISTOL powder; i have tried various pellets and hogdon blackpowder rifle powder and loads never were consistent. Sure would like to find a good load with out hours and hours of trying various combos.
Thanks in advance for you reply and experience.
 

georgeeebuck

Ten Pointer
In my 50 cal. Encore I shoot a load of blackhorn 209 powder ( 70 grains by weight ) with a barnes 250 grain flat base spitfire bullet with a harvester black sabot and a Winchester W209 primer . I shoot about the same load in my older 50 cal. Knight MK 85 with the 209 primer conversion but with a 250 grain barnes blue sabot spitfire ( I think they are called EZ ). My Knight has a real tight barrel and the blue sabot load much better . Both rifles shoot great and have harvested many deer out to 200 yards. I don't know what kind of Hogdon pistol powder you have been loading with but that sounds unwise to me.
 
Last edited:

adkarcher

Six Pointer
Surveryor - how is the recoil on that out of curiosity? Do you hunt with that set up as well? That must have some knockdown power being a .54. I shoot 70 gr with standard round ball out of my .54 and they don't go far.....
 

surveyor

Old Mossy Horns
Surveryor - how is the recoil on that out of curiosity? Do you hunt with that set up as well? That must have some knockdown power being a .54. I shoot 70 gr with standard round ball out of my .54 and they don't go far.....
The gun has some weight so recoil is manageable. 1-3/16" Straight Octagon to the wedding band, then tapered round to 1" at muzzle.


IMG_20201206_152314752.jpg

100gr is the last load I tested for my 180 yd target. I'm getting about 4" less drop than my standard 80gr load.

Frankly, I'll probably stick with 80gr for hunting around here, but I'd really like to keep stretching it out in practice, in case an open field ML hunt opportunity comes up, so I've been checking accuracy with the larger powder loads. I think I'll hit diminishing returns if I go up more that another 10gr.

I use 70gr in my flintlock for roundballs as well.
 
Last edited:

pcbuckhunter

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I'm trying to get a new perspective on muzzleloading and what you have found to be most accurate load--powder/projectile/primer in your particular rifle and what rifle are you shooting it in. I'd appreciate your experiences and what you have found that works well. I have muzzle loaded in past with an early generation Knight and currently have a thompson center ENCORE 209x50 Magnum that i need to work a load up for. The most accurate load i used was hogdon PISTOL powder; i have tried various pellets and hogdon blackpowder rifle powder and loads never were consistent. Sure would like to find a good load with out hours and hours of trying various combos.
Thanks in advance for you reply and experience.
You’re asking for trouble using smokeless powder in a muzzleloader that wasn’t designed for it. That’s a recipe for missing fingers.
 

Haleh

Spike
70 gr FFFg - deer tallow lube on pillow ticking patch - .490 roundball - a black english flint. Using a Custom flintlock with a 42" barrel. Very accurate and a blast to hunt with.
 

team muddy creek

Twelve Pointer
I shoot 80gr of FFG black, pushing a 50 cal. Round ball with a felt was on top of the charge and a patched round ball sitting on top of the felt was. I use pillow ticking that is pre lubed in my t/c renegade. As far as my knight wolverine I use 90 gr8 of FFG in it with a 240 gr xtps with the black sabot. In the other wolverine I use 80 gr. of 777 pushing a 200 grain xtp in the green sabot. The 200 gr. Ftp is 44 cal.
 

sky hawk

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I don't find ML loads to be all that finicky. Most of them you can throw 100 grains of volume powder, load the bullet and shoot with killable accuracy out past 100 yards. Some may like 90 gr., some 120gr., but I haven't seen a dramatic difference in the groupings just by a little more or less powder.

Most of the time with a ML, I am picking a bullet with good terminal performance on game (Hornady XTP) and then just looking for an acceptable group out to 150 yards.

Right now, my load is 100 gr. (V) Blackhorn, 240 gr. XTP out of T/C Encore FX. I don't recall seeing any accuracy difference between the Win 209 and CCI primers, though they did fit a little different.
 

Longrifle

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I like the thump of a big bore muzzleloader. I put a sheet out in front of the bench and keep adding powder til I see specks of unburned on it.
 

pcbuckhunter

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I don't find ML loads to be all that finicky. Most of them you can throw 100 grains of volume powder, load the bullet and shoot with killable accuracy out past 100 yards. Some may like 90 gr., some 120gr., but I haven't seen a dramatic difference in the groupings just by a little more or less powder.

Most of the time with a ML, I am picking a bullet with good terminal performance on game (Hornady XTP) and then just looking for an acceptable group out to 150 yards.

Right now, my load is 100 gr. (V) Blackhorn, 240 gr. XTP out of T/C Encore FX. I don't recall seeing any accuracy difference between the Win 209 and CCI primers, though they did fit a little different.
I've seen enough of a difference with a 10 gr increase or decrease in Blackhorn for me to at least always check it. For instance in my buddy's FX 110gr was the sweet spot. 100 gr was good, 110 gr was great, 120gr was not enough improvement in either accuracy, trajectory or velocity to warrant the extra powder usage. The groups actually opened up from 3/4" with 110 gr to 1 1/8" with 120 gr.

The main thing with the primers and fit is the crud ring and blow by. Some primers that don't fit as tightly allow more blow by and you get more of a crud ring on your breech plug.
 

sky hawk

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I've seen enough of a difference with a 10 gr increase or decrease in Blackhorn for me to at least always check it. For instance in my buddy's FX 110gr was the sweet spot. 100 gr was good, 110 gr was great, 120gr was not enough improvement in either accuracy, trajectory or velocity to warrant the extra powder usage. The groups actually opened up from 3/4" with 110 gr to 1 1/8" with 120 gr.

The main thing with the primers and fit is the crud ring and blow by. Some primers that don't fit as tightly allow more blow by and you get more of a crud ring on your breech plug.

I agree it can make a difference, but a 3/8” increase in group size isn’t going to make much functional distance at typical ML kill distances, IMO. Unlike a centerfire. Now if it opened to 4”, then we’ve got a problem.

I agree also that it’s worth checking, but most setups will shoot just fine anywhere in that range. My point is that trajectory becomes a problem before group size (from being off 10 grains) does in a hunting scenario.
 

surveyor

Old Mossy Horns
My point is that trajectory becomes a problem before group size (from being off 10 grains) does in a hunting scenario.

Prezactly.

Which is why I keep pouring more coal to my 54. I can handle a little side to side if it isn't a big deal, but I do like it shooting as flat as it can, especially shooting open sites.
 

pcbuckhunter

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I agree it can make a difference, but a 3/8” increase in group size isn’t going to make much functional distance at typical ML kill distances, IMO. Unlike a centerfire. Now if it opened to 4”, then we’ve got a problem.

I agree also that it’s worth checking, but most setups will shoot just fine anywhere in that range. My point is that trajectory becomes a problem before group size (from being off 10 grains) does in a hunting scenario.
I agree.
The group size was more of a footnote.
I should have made mention of the 1 1/2” difference in drop at 200 yards. I had it in my mind and just didn’t include it.

90% of ML hunters will never have to worry about the difference the 10 grs will make in a hunting situation. Truth be told, many would never even notice the difference between 90 grs and 110 grs. Unless you’re really gonna stretch one out, 80 or 90 grs of BH209 is a very suitable load in most ML’s and hunting situations
 

Winnie 70

Ten Pointer
thima018, have been at this game a long time now...close to 50 years and have seen it go from blk powder and all the propellants there is and Blackhorn is the best I have used. Most all Knights will handle a full charge 120 grain load and that with the Knight Red Hot bullet is what I have gone to. Zero it to hit 3" high at 100 it will only drop about 5" or so at 200 yards and over 1000 lbs energy at that range, so for deer that is my load. You can load lighter if you like and also get great results, but I like the confidence of knowing if I get a long haul I can reach him. These figures are from my gun and always work up your loads to be safe but blackhorn will not let you down in all aspects.
 

timekiller13

Old Mossy Horns
I’m still trying to understand what would possess you to use smokeless powder in a muzzleloader that’s not designed for it.
A lot of people have done it in the Encores without issues. It’s when you double load it on accident is when you have a big problem. The Savage was designed to handle accidental overloads. These others are not. That right there is what kept me from ever trying it in my encore. No matter how careful you are, everyone makes mistakes and gets distracted. You accidentally put 200 grains of black powder in one and all you get is a sore shoulder. You accidentally pour 100 grains of smokeless in one then you are missing body parts.

With my encore, 110 grains of loose triple 7 300 grain Hornsby XTP black sabot, CCI primer.
 

pcbuckhunter

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
A lot of people have done it in the Encores without issues. It’s when you double load it on accident is when you have a big problem. The Savage was designed to handle accidental overloads. These others are not. That right there is what kept me from ever trying it in my encore. No matter how careful you are, everyone makes mistakes and gets distracted. You accidentally put 200 grains of black powder in one and all you get is a sore shoulder. You accidentally pour 100 grains of smokeless in one then you are missing body parts.

With my encore, 110 grains of loose triple 7 300 grain Hornsby XTP black sabot, CCI primer.
A lot of people have drove drunk without issues too. That don’t mean it’s smart.

I’ve seen what happens when some idiot puts smokeless powder in a muzzleloader that’s not designed for it. A feller that used to hunt in Ga with my dad bulged the barrel on his Encore ProHunter by using Unique in it.
 

timekiller13

Old Mossy Horns
Anyone remember AC Burgess, gunsmith in Alexander county? He told me I could shoot up to 54 grains of IMR 4198 in an Encore. He stressed that it had to be the old style breech plug (screw in not quick detach one) and also said “You better not double load it or accidentally leave your ram rod in.” I passed but I know a lot of guys who did exactly what he said. Some of them are still doing it. Heck, I know a guy who shoots pistol powder in a Knight MK 85!! Not condoning it at all. People do crazy, stupid things.

I bought a Savage several years ago just so I wouldn’t have to worry about any of that stuff.
 

MJ74

Old Mossy Horns
Current load for a CVA Optima is 100 grains BH209 by volume, Cheddite brand primer, Either a TC or Hornady SST style bullet in a yellow crush rib sabot. Good out to 200 yards to kill a deer, YMMV depending on the gun but the load is proven.

Same for me except I use a CCI 209M primer.
Haven't killed anything with it but paper yet 😛
 

shotgunner

Ten Pointer
We have a CVA Optima V2 (stainless), CVA Optima LR (Nitride) that both shoot 100 gr. BH209 (volume) under a Barnes TEZ 250 gr. bullet. The LR rifle definitley shoots a little better. Groups at 100 yds less than 1". Good enough for me. The stainless gum shoots plenty good enough to hunt with, groups right around 1" at 100 yds. My daughter shoots a TC Encore Pro Hunter(stainless). She shoots 100 gr. of Blackhorn as well but uses a 200 gr. bullet. I think it is a Thompson Center shock wave. It is a 200 gr bullet. Little less recoil for her and her gun loves it. Using Fiocchi primers in all loads.
 
Top