Just wishful thinking

Helium

Old Mossy Horns
Between , VA /NC/SC I saw more Legal birds this year than ever in my last 5-6 years of serious turkey addiction
 

turkeyfoot

Old Mossy Horns
I personally don't think here in NC anyway that the turkey problem is due to over harvest from hunting. I think the problem is habitat and farming practices. The vast majority of the states turkeys live on private land. I would like to see the conservation groups get together and find a way to give private landowners incentives to produce better habitat on their land. I know it's a pipe dream but I think that's the way to help the wild turkey.
Could start with not mowing nests down and move to leaving cover on field edges but like you said and quail know all to well a pipe dream
 

sky hawk

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
The population issues are at the local level. Local, as in property/area/sub-county level. Looking at the county reports, I have not observed an entire county whose harvest is tanking. When the state numbers look good, and the individual county numbers all look fine, it's going to be a hard sell to get the WRC to change regulations, I believe.

On a personal note, we are experiencing the same thing. Our primary turkey property has held good numbers of birds ever since the season was opened decades ago. Since we began hunting there over 10 years ago, we have not had a season where we didn't kill at least one or two birds off of it (some years 4+), including last year. This season, it was dead quiet. I didn't see a male turkey. I didn't hear a male turkey. In fact, on three different properties, I did not hear a gobble on property I could hunt all season long. The county was only down about 10% from the previous few years.

That makes for a disappointing season, and one naturally has to ask questions. What changed? What's going on? How widespread is the problem?
 

turkeyfoot

Old Mossy Horns
Thats my point. No one argues that is is detrimental to the population. So why does it need to be changed.
Ask biologists they'll tell you its detriminal to take out dominant birds to early university studies in 3 states have shown that and 2 have changed regs because of it. I'm in no way against a kid hunting love to see rhem smiles but a wknd is plenty enough and then they have rest if season. Most birds are killed on private no reason to not take a kid every wknd
 

wolfman

Old Mossy Horns
I keep seeing the word "decline" but does anyone have any data to support that the population in NC is declining other than local observations?
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
I keep seeing the word "decline" but does anyone have any data to support that the population in NC is declining other than local observations?
i suggest that it is based on this years reported harvest from the piedmont and mountain turkey mgt areas.
We had perfect weather most of the entire season. Plenty of time for covid workers and school aged folks to hunt.
I think the reverse is true as well.
Does anyone have data to support the population Growing besides coastal numbers and personal experience? :)
When you limit out in two hunts it would be hard to imagine a problem. LOL.
 

turkeyfoot

Old Mossy Horns
One trend that has been shown is after restocking there is always a leveling off in many states and there is when I think lot the cimplaing by hunters start they want it to always be way it was at peak but that's just not possible with turkeys there are so many things to factor in and I one thousand percent agree with above statement about the biologists they live it year round I'm not gonna sit around on couch and say they don't care at least not till I've had several conversations😁 I remember learning so much in Va from talking with turkey biologist gave me even more appreciation for hunting them. Also remember even with them they are always learning over last 25 years they be changed their thinking on several things with new studies being done a good biologist wants same thing hunters want a thriving population. To me we look at places and think turkeys should be there like we think of deer but they just aren't same with repopulating they just can't be on every good looking piece of land. Couple bad hatches over predation of poults can set them back few years prime example would be SE Ks they had tons birds then few consecutive bad hatches some due to flooding and haven't recovered in several years now. On side note these are excellent threads not much better than good turkey conversations and I enjoy hearing everyone's opinions
 

wolfman

Old Mossy Horns
i suggest that it is based on this years reported harvest from the piedmont and mountain turkey mgt areas.
We had perfect weather most of the entire season. Plenty of time for covid workers and school aged folks to hunt.
I think the reverse is true as well.
Does anyone have data to support the population Growing besides coastal numbers and personal experience? :)
When you limit out in two hunts it would be hard to imagine a problem. LOL.
What's strange to me is years ago the piedmont was seen as prime turkey habitat - pasture land and hardwoods. And the introduction of birds to the coast was seen as a waste of time. They can't survive in pine forests and swamps. Or they'll get poached from all of those ag fields. Yet they are flourishing.

I did limit out in two hunts but I'm not foolish enough think that's the norm. There is usually a fine line between tagging out and getting skunked. I would say it was a normal year of gobbling and bird sightings this season (although no jakes) on the 200 acres I have access to. Thankfully the birds decided to roost on the property this season.;)
 

turkeyfoot

Old Mossy Horns
I keep seeing the word "decline" but does anyone have any data to support that the population in NC is declining other than local observations?
overall no decline even expanding in some areas but as always even in best times always pockets where birds just aren't at I see no realistic way to resolve that as even in counties where pockets are the overall harvest is still reasonable.
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
What's strange to me is years ago the piedmont was seen as prime turkey habitat - pasture land and hardwoods. And the introduction of birds to the coast was seen as a waste of time. They can't survive in pine forests and swamps. Or they'll get poached from all of those ag fields. Yet they are flourishing.

I did limit out in two hunts but I'm not foolish enough think that's the norm. There is usually a fine line between tagging out and getting skunked. I would say it was a normal year of gobbling and bird sightings this season (although no jakes) on the 200 acres I have access to. Thankfully the birds decided to roost on the property this season.;)
That was a giant false assumption in all of turkey restoration that they needed continuous forest to be successful.
Which makes it even more puzzling why they dont "move back" into previous habitat like portions of caswell.
The habitat has not all been developed up there for certain. A big mystery to me.
But common knowledge enough to be almost as good as some "hard " data confirming population decline.
 

turkeyfoot

Old Mossy Horns
i suggest that it is based on this years reported harvest from the piedmont and mountain turkey mgt areas.
We had perfect weather most of the entire season. Plenty of time for covid workers and school aged folks to hunt.
I think the reverse is true as well.
Does anyone have data to support the population Growing besides coastal numbers and personal experience? :)
When you limit out in two hunts it would be hard to imagine a problem. LOL.
A steady growth only in coastal. But overall piedmont and mtns to me are stable. Turkeys are one one animal that can fluctuate the most even miles apart one guy could be loaded other hearing crickets. If people want more birds I just keep preaching brood range but I know its out of most control as what is done on land
 

QuietButDeadly

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Our turkey regs are pretty simple and the same statewide. That is not the case in other states.

Kansas has had regional regs since I have been familiar with their regs, 10 or 12 years. In 2019, there was a 2 bird limit in the entire state except for one region where no turkey could be taken. In 2020, the one region stayed the same, no harvest allowed but the limit was dropped to one bird in all but two of the other regions in KS. The two bird limit remains in the other two regions and the tags are very specific as to what region they can be used in.

I have an offer to hunt some private land in Iowa so I started looking at their regs for non residents which are all by draw permit with a one bird limit. And not only are they drawn by region but their season is broken down into 4 one week time frames. Not only to you have to apply for a specific region but you also have to specify the week you want to hunt. And you have to apply by mid January.

SD is regional as well and some units there allow rifles. This creates a situation where you need to get access to land first so you can figure out the how the regs apply in that particular area.

If there is a significant enough difference in the timing of breeding from the coast to the mountains, I have no problem with adjusting the start date of the season to allow for that. Our regs would still be pretty simple compared to many states.
 

gobbler

Eight Pointer
As Oldest School suggested, give Chris Kreh, the Upland Game Bird Biologist, a call. He's a great guy who's been with the WRC for many years. I guarantee you he will shed some light on most of the misconceptions stated in this thread.
WRC biologists are the most dedicated folks I have ever had the opportunity to work with. I was a WRC wildlife biologist for 32 years so I know of what I speak. When someone states that WRC employees don't care and all they do is sit around in air conditioned offices thinking of ways to screw up your hunting, I get pissed off. I'll excuse your ignorance once, but not the second time. So, before you condemn these folks, give them a call. You can find their contact information on the ncwrc website under contacts.

I’ve talked to them via email called and face to face, my number is 336-301-6652,My signal will be spotty for the next two weeks but my email is catchinkevin@gmail.com

what I say is my experience and and I’d love to have someone come out and ride around with me
What I want is someone with the ability do something about it to realize what I’ve been saying and put some effort into fixing it
And please do t tell me they are cause actions speak a lot louder than words
 
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QBD2

Old Mossy Horns
If there are turkeys in proximity, and they don’t ‘fill in’, it’s simply because the habitat is lacking something they want/need.

We have to realize that ‘perfect habitat’ isn’t perfect after all. Because if it was, there’d be birds using it.

I have to laugh at the whole ‘I’ve been hunting here XX years, and the habitat hasn’t changed but the birds are gone’. Uh...yea, the habitat has changed... The only constant, is change.

I love to hunt those big hardwood bottoms and ridges, but danged if the bulk of my time anymore is spent around some ratty cutover that’s full of turkeys...

“Hunt em where they are, not where you want them to be”-DA;)
 

waymoe1

Ten Pointer
Love this thread and the conversations that have come from it. I know one thing, this weather we are having today is a killer for the poults. It is mid 40's and a cold rain in my area and all I can think of is the poults that will not be able to take this weather. Seems like the last few springs we have really had some cold springs.
 

wolfman

Old Mossy Horns
Love this thread and the conversations that have come from it. I know one thing, this weather we are having today is a killer for the poults. It is mid 40's and a cold rain in my area and all I can think of is the poults that will not be able to take this weather. Seems like the last few springs we have really had some cold springs.
I would be more worried if this were the last week of May or early June. I think most eggs are still incubating.
 

woodmoose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
If there are turkeys in proximity, and they don’t ‘fill in’, it’s simply because the habitat is lacking something they want/need.

We have to realize that ‘perfect habitat’ isn’t perfect after all. Because if it was, there’d be birds using it.

I have to laugh at the whole ‘I’ve been hunting here XX years, and the habitat hasn’t changed but the birds are gone’. Uh...yea, the habitat has changed... The only constant, is change.

I love to hunt those big hardwood bottoms and ridges, but danged if the bulk of my time anymore is spent around some ratty cutover that’s full of turkeys...

“Hunt em where they are, not where you want them to be”-DA;)


thank you,,,,,,,
 

Lucky Clucker

Old Mossy Horns
Some of my questions as well.
I can use a specific 350 acre piece in Yancey Co. as an example also.
Man has a piece of property there that he lets me hunt. Prime place with everything a bird could want. Good year round food sources, water, secure roosting sites, great nesting and brood range for poult rearing. It really looks like a piece of heaven, except for no birds.

I can get up high in the morning and hear birds on other properties for quite a fair distance. Turkeys surround this property on all sides, not in huge numbers but I can hear 7-8 different toms on a good morning. In all fairness, the property that I can hunt is in better shape than the others that surround it but the turkeys absolutely will not, under any circumstance, spend any significant time on this property.

I caught 1 tom roosted in there 1 time about 3 years ago with a hen, they flew down and immediately walked over the ridge onto the next property. Never heard or seen one there before or since.....completely baffles me as to why birds will not expand further out across the whole river drainage these properties all lie in.
Bait
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
"Wishful Thinking " arrives in Alabama. Apparently their 2022 regs will be:
4 bird limit- down from five.
No decoys or fans the first ten days-
One gobbler allowed first ten days of season- public land-
Opening day moved back to the 25th of March-
Only two birds allowed per person on any one WMA or NF.-
No afternoon hunting on public- 1pm close.


I think SC's solution was simpler but understand the need to try and limit the early / PL kill.
 

gobbler

Eight Pointer
Ya’ll see that Connecticut raised there limit last year to 5, don’t get excited, it wasn’t biologically based, strictly to attract revenue
 

gobbler

Eight Pointer
"Wishful Thinking " arrives in Alabama. Apparently their 2022 regs will be:
4 bird limit- down from five.
No decoys or fans the first ten days-
One gobbler allowed first ten days of season- public land-
Opening day moved back to the 25th of March-
Only two birds allowed per person on any one WMA or NF.-
No afternoon hunting on public- 1pm close.


I think SC's solution was simpler but understand the need to try and limit the early / PL kill.

I get and understand the thoughts on the one per the first ten day rule but as a traveling nonresident hunter your essentially paying for one tag, unless you go later ofcourse
 

Brad_Colvin

Eight Pointer
I understand the need for changes in Alabama but I have some questions about the changes they are making. How are they going to enforce these new laws and why are the biggest changes targeting public land which accounts for about 5% of the land in Alabama?
 

turkeyfoot

Old Mossy Horns
I understand the need for changes in Alabama but I have some questions about the changes they are making. How are they going to enforce these new laws and why are the biggest changes targeting public land which accounts for about 5% of the land in Alabama?
Good point on public strict regs for not that many kills. As far as the enforcing in Bama you have check in and out each day when hunting a public piece and have to tag that kill before move bird most have Bama app on phone and even with no phone service will have bird checked in before walking out woods easy know where you killed it immediately. Of course there will always be ways to skirt law but most will not. I'm good with these changes as non resident hunter will thin woods out some by time I get there but if I lived in state not sure I'd like the public rules at all if you got opening day bird and public is all you got have wait 9 days hunt again would suck
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
I understand the need for changes in Alabama but I have some questions about the changes they are making. How are they going to enforce these new laws and why are the biggest changes targeting public land which accounts for about 5% of the land in Alabama?
theory is that it was a compromise with what their head guy wanted and it will go to whole state soon.
And imo it is an attempt to stop the high rate of THP wannabees. They and other you tube stars have ruined PL experience in alabama.
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
Looks like Georgia may be heading down the same path.
Reduced limits, limit on PL kills, later opening, really late opening on wmas.
Going to stop invasion of aliens during prime breeding season.


I have heard this bio on O'Neal outdoors radio from GA early on saturday mornings. But she never voiced these proposals.
The guys I was in camp with in Florida had hunted GA wmas exclusively for years. They told me they had "never needed to hunt private."
That changed with the you tube shows and covid according to them.
I hope it's not too little too late.
I can see a mass of folks heading to public on their openers after they have played with the private land birds for a couple of weeks.
It's not a great time to be a turkey bio is it? :)
 
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