Holy Crap! Lease prices are INSANE!

[timekiller13]

I gave up all my leased properties over the last couple of years to start hunting public land. I was tired of playing the leasing game. But, I still keep my eyes and ears open just in case a piece of land comes open close to home that I can take my kids to. Last week, I was driving down the road and saw a sign that said "Hunting land for lease." I pulled in the driveway to talk to the landowner who was in the yard. He said he had 100 acres. I asked him how much and he said "$2500, plus you better have liability insurace." Holy crap $25/acre! No thanks.

A buddy of mine leased some land in the central part of the state last year and he paid $32/acre! WTH? Another friend of mine recently leased some land in Ohio and he paid $27/acre for it. I just can't believe it. I thought $10/acre was bad, but double and triple that? I'm glad I gave all mine up. There's plenty of public land for me to roam.

 

[bowhuntingrook]

If they are taking the time and effort to advertise it, they will ask a high amount and most likely get it. If you want a deal on a lease you need to go ask landowners that have no clue what people are willing to pay. The kind of people that would let you hunt for free, instead of getting it free, pay them, they will be happy and have no clue they could get twice as much. And paying and forming contract will prevent others from getting permission on it.

 

[Downeast]

I'm glad I started buying small tracts of hunting land years ago. When I hear one of my buddies complaining about not having a place to hunt yet drives a truck that cost more than the land I bought I just shake my head.

 

[bwfarms]

I have all the land I need for deer hunting. I want to lease land nearby for cattle.

So buy some hunting ground with good pastureland and water, lease the pasture to me

 

[nchawkeye]

Where are you located BW??? From time to time, I get land that is pastured and sell it...I might be able to give your name to the buyers to lease back to you...

 

[badlandbucks]

Yup it's bad everywhere...but count your small blessings you aren't in a big deer state. There are farms for lease in west central Illinois right now for $128/acre

 

[bshobbs]

Prime land will bring prime prices, heck even bad land will bring in prime prices in certain areas. There are plenty of people that want hunting areas and willing to pay the price. They know they can work Monday thru Friday and have a place to hunt on the weekend.

 

[bwfarms]

Where are you located BW??? From time to time, I get land that is pastured and sell it...I might be able to give your name to the buyers to lease back to you...

Alamance, SW Orange, North and West Chatham, NE Randolph, SE Guilford. Looking in the general area below I-40 to Highway 64.

 

[timekiller13]

I have watched the prices keep climbing over the last few years. The properties I was leasing went from $5/acre now to over $10-15. I'm not paying that, much less double that. I really have no desire to lease any property. I would consider a small tract close to my house, basically just to have a place for my kids. I've been looking at buying land over the last few years, but decent tracts in my area go for $7-10,000/acre. Real good pieces go for way more. I've expanded my search further from home, but am hesitant to own a piece of land that is several hours away. In fact, I nearly purchased a piece of land in Kentucky last year, but backed out in the end because it was 6 hours away. If I buy some land, I want to be able to use it as much as possible. Having to drive a few hours means I would need multiple days in a row off to be able to work on it or hunt it. Not to mention the trespassing issue that could arise from not being able to keep an eye on your land. I'm going to keep searching for land to buy and in the mean time I will utilize the public properties.

 

[Homebrewale]

If you thought leasing was expensive, try buying land. You'll likely find that more expensive. At mentioned by timekiller13, I'd want land that is not far from where I live. I'm in Apex so I'd be looking somewhere in Chatham or Harnett Counties. Chatham is pretty much out of the question. 100 acre land plots are running in the million dollar range. In Harnett, I can currently find mid 80 acre plots running about $2000 an acre but it has been clearcut and 20-40% of the land is swamp. You are not buying prime land for redevelopment sometime out in the future so don't plan for a lot of appreciation.

Land loans are often shorter term and higher interest. Just looking at one website for Carolina Farm Credit, a loan would be for 15 years and 5.75% interest rate. The payments would run a little over $20k per year and you would pay a little over $100k in interest over the life of the loan. $100k would pay for 40 years of a $2500/year lease that the OP mentioned. Of course, leasing prices would continue upward but it still may pay for 25-30 years of leasing.

A $20k per year land loan would be $17,500 that I would forego $17,500 in retirement investing ($20,000 loan-$2500 lease). I would be much better off financially to lease and then invest the $17,500 in the stock market. So to conclude, a $2500 lease looks like a bargain to me.

 

[lasttombstone]

25 years ago I was in the same situation as timekiller but leasing was just going. It was urban expansion that I saw and knew I didn't want to be a part of it. At that time I was about 25 miles or so north of Raleigh. I started looking in the farm acerage want adds every Sunday. It took 5 years but the perfect place finally came up. Our house was paid for and I was within sight of retirement at 50 so I was looking for minimum 100 ac. that I could pay for and not really concerned where it was. I just knew I didn't want to be were I was in the foreseeable future. So, for roughly 25 years I have had my own place to hunt, whenever, however I want and am in a place that I feel confident will not experience extreme population growth during my lifetime. if you are willing to make some changes and give up somethings, be patient and really search, things just may work out for you.

 

[badlandbucks]

Bringing up the cost of owning land raises an interesting point. I am currently in the market for a farm to sink my retirement savings into. Looking at the numbers, The $ I invest into retirement savings, added to what I spend on leasing every year, I can easily afford the payments on a piece of land. The returns I get on my investment money now is less than what my return would be on land. land equity grows an average of 8-9% per year (at least here). Plus I get to actually have use of my vested funds for something in the meantime. Add to that the prospect of income generated by a property through cash renting tillable land or timber sales; once the down payment is made the right farm will nearly pay for itself. Especially the type of farm I'm looking for, a fixer upper I can improve and flip into a bigger farm within 2-3 years. Takes some knowledge of the tax code and real estate market, but it can be done affordably.

 

[30/06]

Bringing up the cost of owning land raises an interesting point. I am currently in the market for a farm to sink my retirement savings into. Looking at the numbers, The $ I invest into retirement savings, added to what I spend on leasing every year, I can easily afford the payments on a piece of land. The returns I get on my investment money now is less than what my return would be on land. land equity grows an average of 8-9% per year (at least here). Plus I get to actually have use of my vested funds for something in the meantime. Add to that the prospect of income generated by a property through cash renting tillable land or timber sales; once the down payment is made the right farm will nearly pay for itself. Especially the type of farm I'm looking for, a fixer upper I can improve and flip into a bigger farm within 2-3 years. Takes some knowledge of the tax code and real estate market, but it can be done affordably.

Your leaving out a few variables, interest on your loan, risk and taxes! Not saying land is a bad investment at all but make sure you weigh all the factors.

I've been wanting to buy some land for some time but there is no way in hell I can afford it in the Raleigh area, it's gone through the roof. I have 10 more years to go and then I'll be in Lastombstone's position. I'll be selling off my Raleigh property and heading to KY or Iowa. I'm getting away from the east coast. Grew up in NJ and left as soon as I feasibly could, the Raleigh area is getting just as bad as the area I grew up in. Crowded, expensive and filled with Yuppies.

 

[badlandbucks]

Your leaving out a few variables, interest on your loan, risk and taxes! Not saying land is a bad investment at all but make sure you weigh all the factors.

I've been wanting to buy some land for some time but there is no way in hell I can afford it in the Raleigh area, it's gone through the roof. I have 10 more years to go and then I'll be in Lastombstone's position. I'll be selling off my Raleigh property and heading to KY or Iowa. I'm getting away from the east coast. Grew up in NJ and left as soon as I feasibly could, the Raleigh area is getting just as bad as the area I grew up in.

In full disclosure I am going to buy in Iowa. There is always a risk with any investment, but land is one of the most stable. As far as taxes, there are ways to finagle things to make those a non issue if you play it smart. For me, finding a farm with a balance of income (tillable or CRP) and hunting value is what i want. An income producing property will pay for its own taxes instead of coming out of my pocket, not to mention programs like CRP, wetlands, classified forest, etc all offer contracts that reduce tax amount considerably.

 

[lasttombstone]

I understand that things are certainly different from 25 years ago but I still don't think you HAVE to go out of state to get a good place. Maybe I'm just strange but I never once considered using my property in any way to generate income. It is mine to enjoy and as long as nothing is hurting the property, I'm not concerned. There are only 17 ac. of cleared land out of the 185, the remainder being in standing hardwood. That open land is given to a local farmer to plant in beans, wheat and corn at no charge. I get plenty of benefit from it plus don't have to maintain the fields. He leaves what I want on the edges to plant myself. Because of the location, timber removal is virtually impossible, even if I considered cutting any. I doubt that I ever would even if I could. With my home and everything else there is here, my taxes are less than $2000/year. To me, this is better than any lease I could ever have, even if there aren't any deer or turkeys here. And I am less than an hour from 540.

 

[badlandbucks]

I understand that things are certainly different from 25 years ago but I still don't think you HAVE to go out of state to get a good place. Maybe I'm just strange but I never once considered using my property in any way to generate income. It is mine to enjoy and as long as nothing is hurting the property, I'm not concerned. There are only 17 ac. of cleared land out of the 185, the remainder being in standing hardwood. That open land is given to a local farmer to plant in beans, wheat and corn at no charge. I get plenty of benefit from it plus don't have to maintain the fields. He leaves what I want on the edges to plant myself. Because of the location, timber removal is virtually impossible, even if I considered cutting any. I doubt that I ever would even if I could. With my home and everything else there is here, my taxes are less than $2000/year. To me, this is better than any lease I could ever have, even if there aren't any deer or turkeys here. And I am less than an hour from 540.

True everyone has different goals. For comparison, If that 185 was mine I'd be getting $2700/ year in cash rent for 15 acres of field, so there goes the taxes. And I would have a timber company in and do a select harvest. No timber in inaccessible to the right equipment. I don't know what makeup your timber is, but even "junk" trees like cottonwood have value due to the high number of board feet per tree. If the remainder of that 185 is mostly timber, you probably have $270,000+ in timber. Again speaking hypothetically if it were me...I'd put the majority of that timber $ into principal on the loan, and use the rest on improvements to increase resale value. I'd keep a farm like that a year or two and put it back on the market. with timber paying down the loan considerably, it would sell for a nice profit...I would then immediately use the 1031 tax code to transfer money to a holding agency (bank) and find a new farm to purchase. Then use that money to put down on new property. That way I would not have to pay capital gains tax on any of the profit made on the previous farm, which would be substantial.

I have a friend who has used this process to progressively buy more and bigger properties. started with 20 acres and now owns over 2,000.

 

[lasttombstone]

What loan are you speaking of? Honestly not trying to be a wiseguy here, but what are you talking about $180/ac for open land. I'm no farmer but I don't think anyone around here gets anywhere near that for any farm land. As far as the timber goes, in my case, there are matters that would cause problems with the community were I to harvest timber here, notwithstanding the fact that I don't want the mess that timber harvest leaves, even by the guys that know what they are doing. I see the main difference in our opinions as, you seem to be more profit centered, using the land to make what funds you can, and I am just a guy who could care less about a dollar, as long as I can pay the bills. The serenity and beauty of the property and the enjoyment it gives me is worth far more than money can provide. Regularly I get calls from timber companies wanting to cut my trees. My stock reply is, you can't afford my timber. I rue the day I will have to leave here and I know it is on the horizon, but till that time, I'll just leave it as I got it and enjoy myself. Hopefully, you will be able to continue to generate funds and end up with what you want by the time you are my age.

 

[badlandbucks]

What loan are you speaking of? Honestly not trying to be a wiseguy here, but what are you talking about $180/ac for open land. I'm no farmer but I don't think anyone around here gets anywhere near that for any farm land. As far as the timber goes, in my case, there are matters that would cause problems with the community were I to harvest timber here, notwithstanding the fact that I don't want the mess that timber harvest leaves, even by the guys that know what they are doing. I see the main difference in our opinions as, you seem to be more profit centered, using the land to make what funds you can, and I am just a guy who could care less about a dollar, as long as I can pay the bills. The serenity and beauty of the property and the enjoyment it gives me is worth far more than money can provide. Regularly I get calls from timber companies wanting to cut my trees. My stock reply is, you can't afford my timber. I rue the day I will have to leave here and I know it is on the horizon, but till that time, I'll just leave it as I got it and enjoy myself. Hopefully, you will be able to continue to generate funds and end up with what you want by the time you are my age.

I was speaking hypothetically if I had a similar property where I live. Here $180/acre is average cash rent for tillable ground. cash rents are more or less based on the CSR rating of the soil. Anything less than $150/acre is a steal.

 

[timekiller13]

If you thought leasing was expensive, try buying land. You'll likely find that more expensive. At mentioned by timekiller13, I'd want land that is not far from where I live. I'm in Apex so I'd be looking somewhere in Chatham or Harnett Counties. Chatham is pretty much out of the question. 100 acre land plots are running in the million dollar range. In Harnett, I can currently find mid 80 acre plots running about $2000 an acre but it has been clearcut and 20-40% of the land is swamp. You are not buying prime land for redevelopment sometime out in the future so don't plan for a lot of appreciation.

Land loans are often shorter term and higher interest. Just looking at one website for Carolina Farm Credit, a loan would be for 15 years and 5.75% interest rate. The payments would run a little over $20k per year and you would pay a little over $100k in interest over the life of the loan. $100k would pay for 40 years of a $2500/year lease that the OP mentioned. Of course, leasing prices would continue upward but it still may pay for 25-30 years of leasing.

A $20k per year land loan would be $17,500 that I would forego $17,500 in retirement investing ($20,000 loan-$2500 lease). I would be much better off financially to lease and then invest the $17,500 in the stock market. So to conclude, a $2500 lease looks like a bargain to me.

Owning land is definitely more expensive than leasing, that is for sure. But, if you own the land, you have a tangible asset. And there are ways the land can pay for itself. Several other posts have already talked about the ways to do that. Timber harvesting, renting out tillable acreage, tax reduction programs. Also, as mentioned above, land values typically increase over time. Yes, they may take some hits during a short time frame, but over a 10-20 yr period, they generally increase quite significantly. For example, in 2006 I could have purchased a 60 acre farm I was leasing for $325,000. I didn't have the money so I passed. The owner died and the land sold in 2015 for $675,000. Not saying every piece of land will increase in value like that, but, in general, most land will increase in value over time.

I'm going to continue to look for a piece of land. When the right piece comes along, I will be ready to purchase.

 

[woodmoose]

Kind of hard to make much more of it,,,

 

[wfdavis50]

I gave up all my leased properties over the last couple of years to start hunting public land. I was tired of playing the leasing game. But, I still keep my eyes and ears open just in case a piece of land comes open close to home that I can take my kids to. Last week, I was driving down the road and saw a sign that said "Hunting land for lease." I pulled in the driveway to talk to the landowner who was in the yard. He said he had 100 acres. I asked him how much and he said "$2500, plus you better have liability insurace." Holy crap $25/acre! No thanks.

A buddy of mine leased some land in the central part of the state last year and he paid $32/acre! WTH? Another friend of mine recently leased some land in Ohio and he paid $27/acre for it. I just can't believe it. I thought $10/acre was bad, but double and triple that? I'm glad I gave all mine up. There's plenty of public land for me to roam.

 

[wfdavis50]

Hunt clubs can be expensive.so can lease. I hunting on public land during last hunting season. I'm just not posive that I'm sure I'm setting up in the right spot.
I can identify deer tracks, rubbing, and scrape. Other people say put the work in. What I don't know is what type of work or when to start.

 

[woodmoose]

Hunt clubs can be expensive.so can lease. I hunting on public land during last hunting season. I'm just not posive that I'm sure I'm setting up in the right spot.
I can identify deer tracks, rubbing, and scrape. Other people say put the work in. What I don't know is what type of work or when to start.

when to start? Now (within legal parameters of course) - the more time you spend out there, the more you learn, the more you can apply to the hunt

what type of work? learn about the animal you seek (I assume deer), learn the woods etc, study methods, and hunt as much as you can. A way to lesson that learning curve is to find (or pay) a mentor.

anything worth while will cost you in resources,,,whether that resource is time or money,,,

 

[darkthirty]

It doesn’t take a lot of land to have a place to hunt. Plus, there’s way to let your land work for you. WRP, CRP, EQUIP, are all programs that pay you to let your land sit (work involved in the beginning). One of my buddy’s granddad enrolled about 100 acres in the WRP and they planted native bottomland hardwoods back into what was river bottom cow pastures. Now bearing in mind, it’s a lifetime contract, he got more for doing that than he could’ve ever sold it for.
I just enrolled 6-1/2 acres into the EQUIP program Shortleaf Pine initiative and I know how much they’re paying me to do it on just my little 6-1/2acres. They covered all my costs plus some.
My point is, yes, it’s a large investment upfront for land, but there are ways to make your land work for you.

 

[bwfarms]

when to start? Now (within legal parameters of course) - the more time you spend out there, the more you learn, the more you can apply to the hunt

what type of work? learn about the animal you seek (I assume deer), learn the woods etc, study methods, and hunt as much as you can. A way to lesson that learning curve is to find (or pay) a mentor.

anything worth while will cost you in resources,,,whether that resource is time or money,,,

Shoot I could make a killing with deer hunting advice if people were willing to pay lol.

In a technicality if you're being paid to teach somebody how and where to hunt, that can fall under guide service. Then that person would need the $15 guide license. There might be guide restrictions on NC game lands, need to ask somebody more in the know about game land rules for that.

I reckon it's another one of those don't ask don't tell policies best left to backhoes.

 

[ncstatehunter]

$25 an acre in Catawba?!? Couple of my buddies and I want some land in Gaston, Lincoln or Catawba just so we can have a spot for quick hunts or when we can’t drive an hour-plus to the closest public land we’ve hunt. But like I’ve told them, I’m not paying more than $10 around here unless it was in certain areas of Mecklenburg. Only way I’d do $25 is up in Rockingham or Stokes and even then I’d rather use that money to hunt a couple different states in the Midwest/West.

 

[badlandbucks]

Shoot I could make a killing with deer hunting advice if people were willing to pay lol.

In a technicality if you're being paid to teach somebody how and where to hunt, that can fall under guide service. Then that person would need the $15 guide license. There might be guide restrictions on NC game lands, need to ask somebody more in the know about game land rules for that.

I reckon it's another one of those don't ask don't tell policies best left to backhoes.

 

[Southern]

It's only going to get worse.....

 

[Southern]

If you thought leasing was expensive, try buying land. You'll likely find that more expensive. At mentioned by timekiller13, I'd want land that is not far from where I live. I'm in Apex so I'd be looking somewhere in Chatham or Harnett Counties. Chatham is pretty much out of the question. 100 acre land plots are running in the million dollar range. In Harnett, I can currently find mid 80 acre plots running about $2000 an acre but it has been clearcut and 20-40% of the land is swamp. You are not buying prime land for redevelopment sometime out in the future so don't plan for a lot of appreciation.

Land loans are often shorter term and higher interest. Just looking at one website for Carolina Farm Credit, a loan would be for 15 years and 5.75% interest rate. The payments would run a little over $20k per year and you would pay a little over $100k in interest over the life of the loan. $100k would pay for 40 years of a $2500/year lease that the OP mentioned. Of course, leasing prices would continue upward but it still may pay for 25-30 years of leasing.

A $20k per year land loan would be $17,500 that I would forego $17,500 in retirement investing ($20,000 loan-$2500 lease). I would be much better off financially to lease and then invest the $17,500 in the stock market. So to conclude, a $2500 lease looks like a bargain to me.

We recently had this same thread discussing own vs lease and the above argument is a valid one as it was in the last thread.

 

[woodmoose]

Shoot I could make a killing with deer hunting advice if people were willing to pay lol..

good for you Sir,,,

In a technicality if you're being paid to teach somebody how and where to hunt, that can fall under guide service. Then that person would need the $15 guide license. There might be guide restrictions on NC game lands, need to ask somebody more in the know about game land rules for that..

I was giving that fellow some info on how to learn to hunt,,,,I was NOT talking about what the requirements were to guide (wasn't talking about guides),,

I reckon it's another one of those don't ask don't tell policies best left to backhoes.

glad you think so

you are quite the argumentative fellow aren't you?