I don't shoot smokeless in my black powder cartridge gun.
Guns made in or before 1898 are now legal
- Thread starter CRC
- Start date
I don't shoot smokeless in my black powder cartridge gun.
Then comes this " loaded through the muzzle and which
cannot use fixed ammunition". Again they really didn't clarify, or didn't in my simple mind. Personally I don't care one bit what anyone does. I don't deer hunt much and when I do I wait to the regular season and do it and either take a 26-06 and shoot one or shoot one with a .22 behind the ear when they are slipping around when I am squirrel hunting if someone asks me for one.
But I am afraid this wording in the regs is going to cause some problems for people.
When I read that regulation I take it to mean that if it doesn't load through the muzzle, it ain't legal. I can assure you that I won't be toting a black powder cartridge rifle until gun season. I might just talk to the local warden and ask him his take on it, being as he is the one who enforces the regulations.
Mr.Gadget
Old Mossy Horns
That is the only way you can and should read it.
Any firearm ...1898 ....including ....
so as long as I use. Any firearm that predates or dates to 1898..
I have had a judge reade it and a lawyer both stated that ANY AND INCLUDE are the big words and if they were to hear or fight it you should be fine per the rule if they word.the law the same or what is listed for a charge.
we really need someone at NCWRC that understands and knows what they are talking about to speak up and break it down.
shadycove
Twelve Pointer
I have several BP barrels for my T/C Encore, even the smoothbore 12ga will kill any deer under 80yds and a 50cal factory barrel that has killed a deer at a laser ranged 174yds. These results are equal to anything I can get out of any of my 1880-98 {BP cartridge era} guns/barrels.
There are so many good shooting BP guns out there why worry with this guaranteed trip to the Courthouse.
There are so many good shooting BP guns out there why worry with this guaranteed trip to the Courthouse.
shadycove
Twelve Pointer
All that said, my take on this is that IF you own a firearm made before 1898 and IF it is chambered in a true BP caliber [these WON'T include the Mausers, Krags and others that were designed with smokeless powder as the propellant even back then] see here from the digest:the only lawful firearms are-----------blackpowder-----------shotguns, rifles and handguns. So you guys with a 1873 Winchester in say 38-40 caliber, 45 Long Colt SAA or a 50-90 Sharps et al... will spend little or no time at the Courthouse. If you have any rifle from that era chambered in 45-70 Govt you may spend a little more time at the Courthouse since there are so many "modern" 45-70s out there.
And last but not least, replicas, if these fire cartridge ammo [BP or smokeless] they are OUT, see from reg digest:--------------any replica of this type of firearm if such replica is not---designed or redesigned---for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition. FWIW, almost all cartridges [BP and modern] are either fired by rimfire or centerfire primers.This means that that Puma 1892 replica rifle in 45 Long Colt is out too.------------------- No gray area here so hunting with these will lower your bank balance and you will spend alot of time at the Courthouse.
All the other verbage means squat, ignition system is clear in that even "modern" smokeless cartridges are fired by something very very simlar to a "percussion cap", the words any, including and others just get you the trip to the Courthouse. And we already know what a muzzleloading firearm is.
Poorly written rule for sure but plenty clear enough if you just read it slowly.
I have an even bigger problem with this rule but I will post that in a New Thread.
And last but not least, replicas, if these fire cartridge ammo [BP or smokeless] they are OUT, see from reg digest:--------------any replica of this type of firearm if such replica is not---designed or redesigned---for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition. FWIW, almost all cartridges [BP and modern] are either fired by rimfire or centerfire primers.This means that that Puma 1892 replica rifle in 45 Long Colt is out too.------------------- No gray area here so hunting with these will lower your bank balance and you will spend alot of time at the Courthouse.
All the other verbage means squat, ignition system is clear in that even "modern" smokeless cartridges are fired by something very very simlar to a "percussion cap", the words any, including and others just get you the trip to the Courthouse. And we already know what a muzzleloading firearm is.
Poorly written rule for sure but plenty clear enough if you just read it slowly.
I have an even bigger problem with this rule but I will post that in a New Thread.
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It appears to me as if it's clear to the officers that responded to CRC, but the rule is extremely poorly worded. I guess until a updated regulation comes out, the old 38-40 will be used only during general gun season for now.
I think it could be beaten in court, however I also think the GW will be looking for those folks carrying anything that resembles a modern firearm now. I have a buddy who shoots the Remington 700 version ML in stainless....he's been stopped a couple of times and the gun examined. I think carrying a lever action of any kind in ML season will get you checked in a quick minute.
I think it could be beaten in court, however I also think the GW will be looking for those folks carrying anything that resembles a modern firearm now. I have a buddy who shoots the Remington 700 version ML in stainless....he's been stopped a couple of times and the gun examined. I think carrying a lever action of any kind in ML season will get you checked in a quick minute.
I just got off the phone with my local Game Warden. He told me that any weapon that DOES NOT load from themuzzle is ILLEGAL for use during the Blackpowder Season regardless of propellant
Mr.Gadget
Old Mossy Horns
That is clearly not what the regs say and what ncwrc raleigh told me in the past.
Anythought he may be wrong.
He's human so that is entirely possible. He seemed to put emphasis on the load through the muzzle thing. At any rate, my 1886, is not eligible anyway. He did say that the wording was very confusing, and that he had already had several people call.
Ok, I can only surmise that by renaming the muzzleloader season as black powder season, the WRC is intending this change to allow non-muzzleloading antiques and their exact reproductions. Was the intent to allow cap and ball revolvers? Inquiring minds want to know?
CRC
Old Mossy Horns
Yes it was.
Then it should have been worded: Any rifle, shotgun, musket or pistol, loaded from the muzzle or any revolver loaded from the front of the cylinder and utilizing a separate ignition source. Self contained cartridges shall not be allowed.
I suppose a Colt revolving rifle would be a gray area...........
I suppose a Colt revolving rifle would be a gray area...........
shadycove
Twelve Pointer
CRC is correct, that was the onus of the new rule since you could hunt with a BP pistol as long as it loaded though the muzzle. Cap and ball revolvers did not meet the rule we had, so in fixing one problem, the NCWRC started all this. I still think that this is another attempt toward an "any weapon" season.
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DRS
Old Mossy Horns
Here is the e-mail I sent and the reply.
No cartridge guns. No cap and ball revolvers.
No cartridge guns. No cap and ball revolvers.
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CRC
Old Mossy Horns
The very reason they changed the definitions and the season was to allow cap and ball firearms or so the WRC claimed.
I give up
I give up
shadycove
Twelve Pointer
Maybe the NCWRC should spend a few $$$$$$$$$$$ on a GOOD proof reader. Mr Moses obviously is stating his and or the NCWRCs view of the intent of the rule not the rule as it is written.----------------------------------------------● During the blackpowder and archery deer season, the only lawful
firearms are blackpowder shotguns, rifles and handguns. The
Commission defines a blackpowder firearm as any firearm —
including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion
cap, or similar type of ignition system — manufactured in or before 1898;<------note punctuation -------and any replica of this type of firearm if such replica<----------{no mention here of pre 1899 weapons}-is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition.
firearms are blackpowder shotguns, rifles and handguns. The
Commission defines a blackpowder firearm as any firearm —
including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion
cap, or similar type of ignition system — manufactured in or before 1898;<------note punctuation -------and any replica of this type of firearm if such replica<----------{no mention here of pre 1899 weapons}-is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition.
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shadycove
Twelve Pointer
Maybe somebody down at 1751 Varsity Dr. saw, in an Eastwood movie, how quickly a gunhand could reload his BP cap and ball revolver by just changing the cylinder . And then they may have found out that for less than $300.00, you can buy a conversion cylinder to fit most any cap and ball revolver that is chambered in 45Long Colt. So now the cap and ball guns are out too.
Yep............
Yep............
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I am 99% confident that one could hunt during blac powder season with an original trap door Springfield or rolling block antique. I just do not care to have it confiscated until trial. Who wants to loan me their gun and pay for court costs?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
DRS
Old Mossy Horns
Sad thing is I ask David Cobb, after the District 3 public hearings on the new proposals, if this new black powder season was to allow breech loaders(paper cartridge, primer separate) and cap and ball pistols and he said yes. Now, he could have misunderstood my question, but I don't think so.
shadycove
Twelve Pointer
As I said days ago.......this will be a nightmare for the enforcement and court systems. And no matter what anyone says it will take bowhunting days from us all in the end.
DRS
Old Mossy Horns
You can still bow hunt and that is exactly what I will do if they will not allow cap and ball pistols.
Not sure I understand how this would be the case.
People said the same thing when all the high tech modern scope sighted muzzleloaders were allowed in muzzleloader seasons.
But we all kept filling out tags.
If my understanding is correct, the vast majority of hunters hunt private or leased land.
And for example, I'm the only hunter on the couple of little woodlot I have to hunt.
My using a Flintlock on my woodlot has no effect on a bowhunter in a tree sitting over a corn pile on some other farm...no more than the high tech modern scope sighted muzzleloaders being used on some other farm affect me using my Flintlock on my property.
Anyhow, that's just my .02 cents...
CRC
Old Mossy Horns
............
shadycove
Twelve Pointer
I'd like to know where that came from CRC. In the NCGS's for sure, but where. Now we know where the verbage in the new rule came from. If you follow the line of thought I see here: that a BP firearm can/should also be defined as a "antique firearm".
The bad thing is that there are alot of switch barrel muzzleloaders in use today that would have to go in the gun safe until modern firearms season if somebody in Raleigh has trouble understanding what the meaning of is, is. Bring on the popcorn......
The bad thing is that there are alot of switch barrel muzzleloaders in use today that would have to go in the gun safe until modern firearms season if somebody in Raleigh has trouble understanding what the meaning of is, is. Bring on the popcorn......
He posted what he was told the other day by the guys that are going to enforce the matter but he just has to keep stirring.
DRS
Old Mossy Horns
The problem is as in CRC's last post the regulation on the blackpowder season and weapons allowed borrowed the definitions from laws regulating the possession of firearms by felons.
shadycove
Twelve Pointer
NCC, I have tried for a week to get an explaination about this from the NCWRC. No one from the NCWRC has told me, e-mailed me, called me back or answered my questions about this in ANY form or fashion. And I don't care what somebody says that a GW told his brother-in-law on any other second, third or fourth hand info.
I can read and I know what it says in the reg digest and so do you. When you allow folks, including GWs, to decide what the INTENT of a law or rule is, you will have problems. If you review this entire thread, you will see that folks have run it by lawyers and judges and many others and it is a mess the answers you get about what this rule means. The NCWRC needs to clarify this in some way IMO. They have the means so we will wait and see. And yes there is some stirring going on here and I ain't the only one stirring.
I can read and I know what it says in the reg digest and so do you. When you allow folks, including GWs, to decide what the INTENT of a law or rule is, you will have problems. If you review this entire thread, you will see that folks have run it by lawyers and judges and many others and it is a mess the answers you get about what this rule means. The NCWRC needs to clarify this in some way IMO. They have the means so we will wait and see. And yes there is some stirring going on here and I ain't the only one stirring.
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