Going to be a long night in Fayetteville and Raleigh

[woodmoose]

I don't think the numbers justify the bullcrap

but see,,,it's about those numbers against % of the population!!!

jiminy

--------------------

what I don't get,,,,is if it's SO DANG BAD here,,,why do folks stay?????

Cause it's WAY BETTER than anywhere else they might go,,,,

we are slowly going the way of Rome,,,,different reasons for the downfall,,,but look far enough into the future (and it's not that far) and you see it

 

[bwfarms]

Here ya go, and again I don't think the numbers justify the bullcrap of BLM,
View attachment 45655

As I said before STATISTICS is MANIPULATIVE MATH. It's percentages with the highest number they like to use.

 

[bwfarms]

I need to be faster than @woodmoose such stealth lol

 

[chef]

I’m glad you prefaced by saying those weren’t you words.
I’ll preface my statement below by saying it’s possible to support LE and also call out mistakes. Same goes for any career.


When an article tries to make a series of points and initiates it by saying police officers are lawless, felonious brutes and wear on magical blue costumes...you lose my interest.
See, I enjoy a good debate, but if your points can’t be made without silly little phrases...
I also prefer to see statues, law, case study, etc provided to back up such grandiose claims of immunity and felonious conduct.
And finally....
I also assume you(author) either tried to become a police officer and failed miserably or lost a significant other to one.

I wholeheartedly agree with your first sentiment. He uses way too much name calling and inflammatory language and I often think it hurts his points. I feel the same way about trump (and I voted for him and probably will again).

As to your last point, I have never tried not wanted to become a police officer. I briefly thought about it in undergrad but ultimately switched majors. I have the utmost respect for the job good police officers do and easily recognize that their function is crucial for society to flourish.

I would challenge everyone to examine his points and find good reasons why he is incorrect in terms of law enforcement being held to the same standards as you or I, and of course higher standards in that they are professionals with what I would say are the greatest amount of authoritative power.

In terms of evidence, there are plenty of recent and past events where the actions of an officer, had it been a citizen, would have resulted in charges. Just as he mentioned in the article.

To me, it seems that hero worshipping police is equally as dangerous and foolish as the demands of the protesters right now.

 

[chef]

I watched a clip of a black man demanding that a white woman give an apology for her privilege.

What a crock.

Critical theory is a disease

 

[Soilman]

By that same logic, would having a Daddy that's a doctor entitle you to practice medicine, or even get into med school? No.

If your brother is a thief or a junky, does that make it ok for the cops to come look at you when a lawnmower goes missing in the neighborhood?

I don't know how you got that from my post. I'm speaking from a collective perspective, and they way society views a group of people, while you are on an individual level. Two intirely different things.
I really don't believe there is "white privilege". There is just a standard in our society of how to treat and respond to others as well and standards in morals and values. As a collective, some segments of society have lowered their standards, but expect the rest of society to ignore that and blindly give them the same benefits at the rest of society at the risk of their own well being.
If, as a collective, a segment of society wants to be treated the same as the rest of society, then they need to conform to the same standards. You can't demand equality on one end of the arguement and not the other.

 

[Helium]

Lots of victim shaming going on in this thread. Just because the man allegedly committed a crime doesn't mean he deserved to die. From all accounts, videos and eye witness reports, the punishment did not fit the crime. Passing a fake $20 bill is not grounds for a death sentence, and resisting arrest when you already have your hands cuffed behind your back isn't grounds for a death sentence either. The officer clearly was in the wrong in this situation, and unless damning evidence against the deceased comes out that shows he was actively harming the officer, then his actions were unnecessary and an abuse of power.

As an LEO, you take on certain responsibility when you wear that badge. The training that you received gives you the ability to harm and potentially kill people. It is the responsibility of the officer to know when to use deadly force. Kneeling on a man's neck for a few seconds to subdue him is fine, kneeling on it for 8 minutes is absurd. Either the officer had a serious lapse in judgement or was purposefully trying to cause serious harm. Just like in the military, we had ROE (rules of engagement). We knew the rules, and we knew that violating those rules would result in severe punishment.

I wonder how many on here would be singing a different tune if this was their son/daughter/father or mother who had been killed?

I also fully support the PEACEFUL protests that have been occurring. That is a right of the people and one of the great things about our country, that we can protest what we feel is wrong without fear of being punished by our government. I do not, in any way, support the looting, rioting and acts of violence. Those actions detract from the real reason of the protest, cause harm to innocent citizens and only promotes more hate. Sad thing is, most of those who are rioting and looting don't give a crap about George Floyd, police brutality, racism or whatever else that is being protested. They are just simply taking advantage of the situation.

Just wondering??? If these same type of protests (mixed with riots and looting and beating up cops) were going on for any other politically charged topic whether it be pro-life or pro 2A rights .... would you agree that protests (just the peaceful) need to continue??

Or would you suggest that their message had been hijacked and that it was portraying a negative image and therefore everyone should stop??

Just curious because I am personally sick of tip toeing around people who are supposedly for equality but do not treat similar scenarios equally

 

[Helium]

All the irony... the supposed oppressed becomes the oppressor while arguing they are for equality.

The supposed racially suppressed became racists

 

[bwfarms]

If, as a collective, a segment of society wants to be treated the same as the rest of society, then they need to conform to the same standards. You can't demand equality on one end of the arguement and not the other.

Exactly. I see posts about 'list of black owned businesses to support'. I can't write a list of 'white owned businesses to support.' Heck I don't even go to a business because of the race of the owner, most of the time I don't even know who owns it. I go to the business because of repution, price, service, nearby; not because of somebody's race. I can't substitute black with white on anything. They can and that's not equality, that's segregation and they are doing it to themselves.

Talking like this instantly labels me as racist though.

 

[FireDuck401]

I wholeheartedly agree with your first sentiment. He uses way too much name calling and inflammatory language and I often think it hurts his points. I feel the same way about trump (and I voted for him and probably will again).

As to your last point, I have never tried not wanted to become a police officer. I briefly thought about it in undergrad but ultimately switched majors. I have the utmost respect for the job good police officers do and easily recognize that their function is crucial for society to flourish.

I would challenge everyone to examine his points and find good reasons why he is incorrect in terms of law enforcement being held to the same standards as you or I, and of course higher standards in that they are professionals with what I would say are the greatest amount of authoritative power.

In terms of evidence, there are plenty of recent and past events where the actions of an officer, had it been a citizen, would have resulted in charges. Just as he mentioned in the article.

To me, it seems that hero worshipping police is equally as dangerous and foolish as the demands of the protesters right now.

While I agree with your stance on the article beginning. Qualified Immunity does exist. Should it? As a rule I am against putting people in life and death situation that require split second decision making and tying their hands. The result will be a reduction in their ability to effectively do their jobs or worse yet in a reduction in the quality of person willing to attempt that job.

Case in point, politician, we are in a continuous race to the bottom of the barrel as is evidenced by the Presidential candidate every single election cycle. Nobody can argue, and be taken seriously, that Trump and Hillary were the best two candidates in 2016 or that Trump and Biden are any better.. I am not even sure they were the best of the bad choices but the point is they were all terrible choices. This is because those who should be running won't because the juice is not worth the squeeze.

We all complain about congress passing laws for us but not living under them (Obama Care as an example) but that is the same thing as qualified immunity.

As for the statistical who is killing who conversation above, this is not about general crime, this is about who the police are killing. Both can be true, more black men are killed by black men than by white men AND police kill black men at a higher rate. Stats i saw yesterday, for the last 5 years, show that 25% of all people killed by police shootings are black males.. black males make up on 5% of the population. I have no idea what % of those were justified, guessing justified depends on your perspective.. but that drives the perception.. and perception is reality.

Well thought response and I wasn’t directing my statement at you, rather at the author.
I’ll try to give a more in depth reply later.

 

[woodmoose]

Exactly. I see posts about 'list of black owned businesses to support'. I can't write a list of 'white owned businesses to support.' Heck I don't even go to a business because of the race of the owner, most of the time I don't even know who owns it. I go to the business because of reputation, price, service, nearby; not because of somebody's race. I can't substitute black with white on anything. They can and that's not equality, that's segregation and they are doing it to themselves.

Talking like this instantly labels me as racist though.

spot on

start anything that is targeted to people of European descent and you will face instant lawsuits,,,

people of all ethnicity/races focus on other ethnicity/races but want to say they aren't racist,,,,lying to themselves,,,

it's a fault of the human psychy,,,,and is the human races greatest fault,,,,

this country was founded on the basis of equality - and equal does not mean priviliged

yes there are idiots - but the idiots are found in ALL races,,,not just Caucasion,,,

 

[Ridgeline66]

The "people" that cry racism the most imo are the most racist.....

 

[country]

Arguing to be treated equally but then wanting special treatment.

Hypocrisy...

 

[Firedog]

The STAT on black men killed by police seems very disproportionate, until you look at the stats about who is committing more crimes, which leads to higher chance of police interaction. My opinion.

Which is why I said it drives the perception.. accurate or not perception is reality..

 

[Firedog]

Here is the way I see it. What these folks are demanding is they Law Enforcement and white people, in general, suppress human nature, instincts, common sense, rational thinking, and the natural laws of self preservation when dealing with ANY black person. Why is it that most ANY brand of racial people, even blacks themselves, treat black folks, especially black men, with a higher degree of caution? It's because of the FACTS presented in the crime static charts posted on this forum. THIS is the root cause of their protest. They are demanding that LEO's and whites do something that THEY can't even do, because it is humanly impossible. This is not a "privilege" problem, or even a "rights" problem.

So, the root cause of blacks being treated with a higher degree of caution is because as a whole, the black community has a PR problem that THEY, themselves, have caused. Nobody else can fix that for them. The black community is going to have to do it.
If you want to be treated like a upstanding, productive, law abiding citizen...then CLEAN UP YOU ACT AND ACT LIKE ONE!

I'll tell you what. They are demanding "racial equality in justice". Well, as soon as they can attain "racial equality in crime statistics", they will have it.

I agree with you here but where does caution give way to abuse? Is it out of an abundance of caution that a black man in a nice car gets pulled over for no other reason than his skin color and the kind of car he is driving?

Again I agree with you, but at the same time I can't overlook where that "caution" crosses the line.

 

[Eric Revo]

While I agree with your stance on the article beginning. Qualified Immunity does exist. Should it? As a rule I am against putting people in life and death situation that require split second decision making and tying their hands. The result will be a reduction in their ability to effectively do their jobs or worse yet in a reduction in the quality of person willing to attempt that job.

Case in point, politician, we are in a continuous race to the bottom of the barrel as is evidenced by the Presidential candidate every single election cycle. Nobody can argue, and be taken seriously, that Trump and Hillary were the best two candidates in 2016 or that Trump and Biden are any better.. I am not even sure they were the best of the bad choices but the point is they were all terrible choices. This is because those who should be running won't because the juice is not worth the squeeze.

We all complain about congress passing laws for us but not living under them (Obama Care as an example) but that is the same thing as qualified immunity.

As for the statistical who is killing who conversation above, this is not about general crime, this is about who the police are killing. Both can be true, more black men are killed by black men than by white men AND police kill black men at a higher rate. Stats i saw yesterday, for the last 5 years, show that 25% of all people killed by police shootings are black males.. black males make up on 5% of the population. I have no idea what % of those were justified, guessing justified depends on your perspective.. but that drives the perception.. and perception is reality.

the numbers tell a different story altogether, where 5% of the population is factual they also commit more than the 25% of the violent crimes that people get shot and killed by police for...so in essence black males are getting shot at a lower rate than white males per violent crime committed.

 

[timekiller13]

Just wondering??? If these same type of protests (mixed with riots and looting and beating up cops) were going on for any other politically charged topic whether it be pro-life or pro 2A rights .... would you agree that protests (just the peaceful) need to continue??

Or would you suggest that their message had been hijacked and that it was portraying a negative image and therefore everyone should stop??

Just curious because I am personally sick of tip toeing around people who are supposedly for equality but do not treat similar scenarios equally

As I have said before, peaceful protests are fine. Whether I agree with the reason of the protest or disagree, as long as it is done peacefully, that's your right as an American to protest and let your voice be heard. Regardless of the reason, if protests turn violent then you have lost that right, doesn't matter if its 2A, pro-life, racism, sexism or whatever else. Violence, looting and rioting are not helping solve any problems.

 

[Eric Revo]

I agree with you here but where does caution give way to abuse? Is it out of an abundance of caution that a black man in a nice car gets pulled over for no other reason than his skin color and the kind of car he is driving?

Again I agree with you, but at the same time I can't overlook where that "caution" crosses the line.

Is the guy being pulled over by a white cop, asian cop, hispanic cop, black cop...???..that drives the perception of racism when in actuality all of the cops are simply using an algorithm that they've learned or have been taught. I am doubting that very many black males driving a nice car get pulled simply for being black males driving a nice car. Because I see thousands out there that are driving nice cars , even nice cars driving really fast and aren't getting pulled.

 

[JONOV]

I wholeheartedly agree with your first sentiment. He uses way too much name calling and inflammatory language and I often think it hurts his points. I feel the same way about trump (and I voted for him and probably will again).

As to your last point, I have never tried not wanted to become a police officer. I briefly thought about it in undergrad but ultimately switched majors. I have the utmost respect for the job good police officers do and easily recognize that their function is crucial for society to flourish.

I would challenge everyone to examine his points and find good reasons why he is incorrect in terms of law enforcement being held to the same standards as you or I, and of course higher standards in that they are professionals with what I would say are the greatest amount of authoritative power.

In terms of evidence, there are plenty of recent and past events where the actions of an officer, had it been a citizen, would have resulted in charges. Just as he mentioned in the article.

To me, it seems that hero worshipping police is equally as dangerous and foolish as the demands of the protesters right now.

If you step back and think about it, Police need more latitude to effectively do their jobs. There are privileges they have that I don't like or would like to see reigned in (Civil Forfeiture for one) but that doesn't mean that there aren't good reasons for them.

Holding them to the same legal standard as the rest of us would make it far too risky for them even arrest anyone. Think about it, if a citizen makes an arrest and they're wrong, they're often criminally liable.

Honestly, I think that body cams and cell phone videos are going to go a long way in enforcing accountability in a way that we are beginning to see.

 

[Firedog]

the numbers tell a different story altogether, where 5% of the population is factual they also commit more than the 25% of the violent crimes that people get shot and killed by police for...so in essence black males are getting shot at a lower rate than white males per violent crime committed.

You are making an assumption that all of those shot are involved in the commission of a violent crime. That may or may not be accurate, there simply is not enough data to show that. What we do know and do see on a fairly regular basis, not every day and certainly not everywhere or by everyone, but we do see a number unarmed black men who are killed by police. I don't know how many that is, or how that number would compare to unarmed white men being killed by police. That may be the first thing we should be pushing for as a society, real data to be tracked in an organized manner across jurisdictions so that we can see if perception lines up with reality and if not maybe change the perception.

I have nothing but respect for Officers and the job they do. I work side by side with them on many an emergency scene. However, that does not blind me to the fact that some step over the line on purpose, others by mistake and still others because the line may not have been clearly established in training. Working to eliminate those oversteps is not a bad thing.

That said, there are far too many people who are perpetual victims and are always looking to exploit those who have suffered injustice to benefit themselves

I am doubting that very many black males driving a nice car get pulled simply for being black males driving a nice car.

You can doubt all you want, but I personally know several that have been. The industry I work in has a fairly high number of young, educated black men who can afford nice rides. They are my collegues and my friends. They tell the stories and I hear them from the horses mouth.

 

[Helium]

Wonder where the #stayathomesavelives group went? Look no further than the riots and protests

 

[Eric Revo]

You are making an assumption that all of those shot are involved in the commission of a violent crime. That may or may not be accurate, there simply is not enough data to show that. What we do know and do see on a fairly regular basis, not every day and certainly not everywhere or by everyone, but we do see a number unarmed black men who are killed by police. I don't know how many that is, or how that number would compare to unarmed white men being killed by police. That may be the first thing we should be pushing for as a society, real data to be tracked in an organized manner across jurisdictions so that we can see if perception lines up with reality and if not maybe change the perception.

I have nothing but respect for Officers and the job they do. I work side by side with them on many an emergency scene. However, that does not blind me to the fact that some step over the line on purpose, others by mistake and still others because the line may not have been clearly established in training. Working to eliminate those oversteps is not a bad thing.

That said, there are far too many people who are perpetual victims and are always looking to exploit those who have suffered injustice to benefit themselves

Oh come on now..just admit it..the numbers don't lie. The number of unarmed folks shot has to be extremely minimal or the "news" wouldn't make such a big deal of them when it happens. Even less of a factor if you compared white vs black ratio or that too would make "news".
Same with numbers of officers who overreach or are actually psychopathic and go to work looking for someone to harm, the number has to be so ridiculously low compared to the actual number of law enforcement officers out there or there wouldn't be such a opportunity for the opposites to use for their own purposes.

 

[Firedog]

Oh come on now..just admit it..the numbers don't lie. The number of unarmed folks shot has to be extremely minimal or the "news" wouldn't make such a big deal of them when it happens. Even less of a factor if you compared white vs black ratio or that too would make "news".
Same with numbers of officers who overreach or are actually psychopathic and go to work looking for someone to harm, the number has to be so ridiculously low compared to the actual number of law enforcement officers out there or there wouldn't be such a opportunity for the opposites to use for their own purposes.

Show me the numbers.. I'll wait.

Unarmed people killed by police in the US in the last 5 years? How many were black? White? Hispanic? were the cops Black? White? Hispanic?

Please site your sources so we can verify.. if I am wrong show me and i will admit it. You are right the numbers would not lie, if we had them.. I submit that we don't.

 

[Eric Revo]

Show me the numbers.. I'll wait.

Unarmed people killed by police in the US in the last 5 years? How many were black? White? Hispanic? were the cops Black? White? Hispanic?

Please site your sources so we can verify.. if I am wrong show me and i will admit it. You are right the numbers would not lie, if we had them.. I submit that we don't.

That would certainly be a tough one to pin down since Joe Biden's description of an unarmed man with a knife would certainly be shared by many.
"Instead of standing there and teaching a cop, when there's an unarmed person coming at them with a knife or something, you shoot them in the leg instead of in the heart is a very different thing. There's a lot of different things that could change," Biden said in a meeting with community leaders at Bethel AME Church in Wilmington, Del.

 

[Soilman]

You are making an assumption that all of those shot are involved in the commission of a violent crime. That may or may not be accurate, there simply is not enough data to show that. What we do know and do see on a fairly regular basis, not every day and certainly not everywhere or by everyone, but we do see a number unarmed black men who are killed by police. I don't know how many that is, or how that number would compare to unarmed white men being killed by police. That may be the first thing we should be pushing for as a society, real data to be tracked in an organized manner across jurisdictions so that we can see if perception lines up with reality and if not maybe change the perception.

I have nothing but respect for Officers and the job they do. I work side by side with them on many an emergency scene. However, that does not blind me to the fact that some step over the line on purpose, others by mistake and still others because the line may not have been clearly established in training. Working to eliminate those oversteps is not a bad thing.

That said, there are far too many people who are perpetual victims and are always looking to exploit those who have suffered injustice to benefit themselves



You can doubt all you want, but I personally know several that have been. The industry I work in has a fairly high number of young, educated black men who can afford nice rides. They are my collegues and my friends. They tell the stories and I hear them from the horses mouth.

I agree with Firedog, and there are things on both sides of this issue that need work. I do think LEO's should be held to a slightly higher standard on some things, but we must make sure everyone is aware that behind that badge is a human being with human fears, emotions and a family he/she wants to go home to. EVERYONE needs to do their best to not force them to make a choice between themselves going home to their family, or you going home to yours.
On the other side, there needs to be a lot of work done on how to appropriately respond when approached by a LEO.

 

[Buxndiverdux]

I don't know how you got that from my post. I'm speaking from a collective perspective, and they way society views a group of people, while you are on an individual level. Two intirely different things.
I really don't believe there is "white privilege". There is just a standard in our society of how to treat and respond to others as well and standards in morals and values. As a collective, some segments of society have lowered their standards, but expect the rest of society to ignore that and blindly give them the same benefits at the rest of society at the risk of their own well being.
If, as a collective, a segment of society wants to be treated the same as the rest of society, then they need to conform to the same standards. You can't demand equality on one end of the arguement and not the other.

Exactly... "Perception" and "Privilege" must be earned...

IMO this whole black/white privilege deal is similar to this example. Imagine a clean cut white guy in a golf shirt and shorts, standing beside a scruffy white guy with tattoo's, biker gear. (there is a reason all the bad guys on TV look like a badass. Perception)

Line up 10 people from all races and creeds and have them take a look at the two guys and pick the one they think will hurt them. They are gonna pick the biker every time because of perception. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with privilege. The biker could be a straight laced guy that looks like a badass, and the clean cut guy could be a convicted felon. Again... Perception... Not privilege. If privilege was true, all 10 people would say neither of them will hurt me, they are both white. But that ain't gonna happen. The biker doesn't have privilege because he looks like he will kick your ass if you look at him wrong. He is white, but gets zero privilege.

People see who is killing. They see who doesn't work. They see who is in the gangs. They know the statisics and the 79% fatherless homes. They see what they see and form an opinion. Human nature, street smart. That isn't the fault of the general public, nor is it the responsibility of the general public to fix it. The solution lies squarely on the people creating the perception and negative privilege. Hard to play the victim, when you are the guilty.

 

[Firedog]

That would certainly be a tough one to pin down since Joe Biden's description of an unarmed man with a knife would certainly be shared by many.
"Instead of standing there and teaching a cop, when there's an unarmed person coming at them with a knife or something, you shoot them in the leg instead of in the heart is a very different thing. There's a lot of different things that could change," Biden said in a meeting with community leaders at Bethel AME Church in Wilmington, Del.

I agree so don't tell me the numbers don't lie when in fact there are no numbers. That was the point in the first post. All we have is perception driven by perspective and media coverage because there is no statistical reporting at the level there needs or should be. If stats were kept like they do in sports the numbers and trends would be crystal clear.. the fact is they are not, and a lot of people don't want them to be.

 

[Soilman]

One thing about my argument that my wife played devils advocate with is, she said these folks protesting have been told for generations that they CAN"T do better, that they are oppressed and no matter what they do, they can't move forward. They have been told they need the government to "take care of them".
First off, that is the direct fault of the Democratic Party. Secondly, any of them who buy into that, is essentially admitting that they believe they ARE inferior. That is a lie, and is complete and utter BS! Blacks can do and be ANYTHING that any body else can be.

 

[FireDuck401]

One thing about my argument that my wife played devils advocate with is, she said these folks protesting have been told for generations that they CAN"T do better, that they are oppressed and no matter what they do, they can't move forward. They have been told they need the government to "take care of them".
First off, that is the direct fault of the Democratic Party. Secondly, any of them who buy into that, is essentially admitting that they believe they ARE inferior. That is a lie, and is complete and utter BS! Blacks can do and be ANYTHING that any body else can be.

Your wife is right.
You are also right.

 

[Roanoke]

Racism will continue to exist until we eliminate ethnicity. There should be no choice for race on a census. Every person on earth is a human. Every legal citizen in the US is an American.