Genetic Differences Across the State

stevewes2004

Four Pointer
This thread is not to debate trophy hunting or bring out the D*** measuring tape. Just my observations on the last 10yrs or so hunting all across the piedmont of NC.

On the properties I hunt around the house (Rowan/Cabarrus counties), I’ve had several bucks on camera over the years that were definitely 4.5+ yrs old and I can count on one hand how many would gross over 115”. It always amazes me that the genetics can differ so much by traveling 1.5-2hrs.

These two bucks were aged the same and had similar body weights. I know an example of two deer doesn’t make anything absolute, but based on trail cameras, what others I know have seen or killed, and deer you see on the forums and at the DDC, I think this is a good example of “potential” differences in genetics between two areas of the state...

98” gross, Cabarrus co
b3627cb0bccfd5967a069ae251f7ed27.jpg


140” gross, Orange co.
ea0e8c44dc8ef82c1dc8937a1034a900.jpg



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pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Yes there are genetic differences. There are also soil differences. Good soil will overcome some genetic deficiency. I think most people are seeing more of a soil issue affecting deer than a genetic issue. I’ve seen big change only 5 miles between places.

Deer density can play a large part as well as pressure/stress.

Hunters probably affect genetics more than anything. Everyone wants to shoot a big set of horns. Meat hunters will shoot big horns if they come in. I have never met a meat hunter that didn’t become a trophy hunter once the opportunity was present.

I fully believe that in many places, the larger deer are shot year after year....so inferior ones now are the breeding stock. That doesn’t matter overnight...but twenty years of that will produce an abundance of scrubs.
 

pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
If you want to see big deer, you have to monitor age groups and also horns. You need to let the god genes breed over 2-3 years of you want the large horns to continue.

With all of that being said, you will always have recessive genes that will throw a big deer even in scrubby places. They won’t be plentiful, but they will still exist.

The new buck limits sure seem to have helped in a few places I hunt.
 

stevewes2004

Four Pointer
Yes there are genetic differences. There are also soil differences. Good soil will overcome some genetic deficiency. I think most people are seeing more of a soil issue affecting deer than a genetic issue. I’ve seen big change only 5 miles between places.

Deer density can play a large part as well as pressure/stress.

Hunters probably affect genetics more than anything. Everyone wants to shoot a big set of horns. Meat hunters will shoot big horns if they come in. I have never met a meat hunter that didn’t become a trophy hunter once the opportunity was present.

I fully believe that in many places, the larger deer are shot year after year....so inferior ones now are the breeding stock. That doesn’t matter overnight...but twenty years of that will produce an abundance of scrubs.


For sure!


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I hunt in GA. Some of the biggest bucks killed every year are from Fulton County. Yes the County the city of Atlanta is located in. They are suburb deer but there is no farmland around. I think age definitely plays a role there as it is a bow only county. Patt. Sure a meat hunter wont hesitate to shoot a big racked buck. But he will also not hesitate to shoot a basket racked six if he wants to put some meat in the freezer. Either is cool by me.
 

pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I hunt in GA. Some of the biggest bucks killed every year are from Fulton County. Yes the County the city of Atlanta is located in. They are suburb deer but there is no farmland around. I think age definitely plays a role there as it is a bow only county. Patt. Sure a meat hunter wont hesitate to shoot a big racked buck. But he will also not hesitate to shoot a basket racked six if he wants to put some meat in the freezer. Either is cool by me.

I never said I had a problem with it. What I was referring to is everyone is a trophy hunter when a trophy deer comes about.

The trophy breeding stock is what passes the genes on.
 

QBD2

Old Mossy Horns
How do y’all know what the ‘trophy breeding stock’ of does look like?!?

Genetics are what they are. They can’t be changed, to the good or bad, in a wild herd.

The differences you speak of are dirt. That’s it.
 

Aaron H

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Speaking of NC deer, I think the greatest difference is in nutrition. Here in Chatham County we can kill big antlers off of the farm lands but basically the same deer living the life of a woods deer just can't grow the same sort of rack. Sure, genetics makes a difference but genetics play less a part when you talk about deer living just 10 miles apart. Our NW whitetails live on different soils and carry some similar genetics to what's found across the state line there. I know of one buck killed that had a live weight of 272 pounds. That, I think is an example of genetics as well as diet/minerals. I do taxidermy and each year take in bucks from different areas. I also have sent many teeth off for cementum annuli aging and most of the 4.5 and older bucks from our piedmont will not gross over 130 - many hang just shy of that.
 

TravisLH

Old Mossy Horns
How do y’all know what the ‘trophy breeding stock’ of does look like?!?

Genetics are what they are. They can’t be changed, to the good or bad, in a wild herd.

The differences you speak of are dirt. That’s it.

Agreed especially since does also send down genetics and there is no way to tell a doe with the better (antler) genetics from those that are inferior.

Also soil and genetics both play apart but neither will show the full bucks potential without birthdays behind em. I’m not a trophy hunter but do target older deer, I also shoot some that others would pass on and at the end of the day I shoot what makes me happy.


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MJ74

Old Mossy Horns
You don't have to go 1.5hrs away to see a difference around here.
One of the places I hunt, a 2.5yr old on average has more points and more mass than the other place I hunt 30miles away.

Im sure genetics is part of it but the main reason has to be the soil.


P.S. that 8ptr is a beauty!

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pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
How do y’all know what the ‘trophy breeding stock’ of does look like?!?

Genetics are what they are. They can’t be changed, to the good or bad, in a wild herd.

The differences you speak of are dirt. That’s it.


You don’t know and won’t know. Odds are still dropping with one side of the equation lessening. There are many more factors than dirt.
 
You don’t know and won’t know. Odds are still dropping with one side of the equation lessening. There are many more factors than dirt.
I agree. There are many more factors in play than dirt. I hunted a 650 acre property for twenty years. It was family owned and only a few family members hunted it. During that time I seen big bodied deer with small racks and small deer with big racks and every where in-between. I witnessed some deer that antlers hardly grew from one year to the next and some that took off. There is no magical equation. There are too many factors in play. I do what I can to keep deer on the property I hunt and Im good with that. I dont over think it and just enjoy it.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Basically in and west of the Raleigh area deer from a few sources were used for restocking so genetics shouldn't vary too much in this area. Most of the deer came from the Biltmore Estate next to Asheville and the Devotion Estate near Dobson
 

georgeeebuck

Ten Pointer
What part of the equation is lessening? A doe would pass on the same DNA at one year of age as she would at five years old. A first year spikes DNA is the same as when he is a six year old heavy horned ten point. DNA don't improve with age. If it did I should be hitting my prime at close to 70 years old. About the only positive influence I have as a hunter would be to not shoot every basket racked young buck I see.
You don’t know and won’t know. Odds are still dropping with one side of the equation lessening. There are many more factors than dirt.
 

stevewes2004

Four Pointer
I agree that soil makes a difference..

Neither one of these bucks had an agricultural diet. Hardwoods and cut overs...

I am basically hunting similar age class deer in both areas, so genes and soil (nutrition) are the only other factors.


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pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
What part of the equation is lessening? A doe would pass on the same DNA at one year of age as she would at five years old. A first year spikes DNA is the same as when he is a six year old heavy horned ten point. DNA don't improve with age. If it did I should be hitting my prime at close to 70 years old. About the only positive influence I have as a hunter would be to not shoot every basket racked young buck I see.


Studies have shown that older bucks will do a greater percentage of the breeding. A spike may become a Boone and Crockett deer, but that isn’t known when he is a spike. When a big deer breeds, you know the percentage of producing a genetically similar offspring is better.

You have no way of knowing the dna behind the doe. That’s pure chance.

You can get a glimpse of what a deer has in the 2nd year and 3rd year.

The point of this whole conversation is that Trophy hunters can in fact lessen the local heard genetics for large antlers if that is the only criteria. If the big ones are dead....they can’t pass it on.

There is no arguing this point. The amount of difference it could make is unknown....but over the years, it sure seems like it could be significant.
 

pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
What part of the equation is lessening? A doe would pass on the same DNA at one year of age as she would at five years old. A first year spikes DNA is the same as when he is a six year old heavy horned ten point. DNA don't improve with age. If it did I should be hitting my prime at close to 70 years old. About the only positive influence I have as a hunter would be to not shoot every basket racked young buck I see.


The doe DNA is unknown. The buck DNA is unknown until it shows in year 2 or 3. If the big ones are dead in the first 2-3 years....they will not be breeding. The unknown button heads and spikes will be.
 

georgeeebuck

Ten Pointer
The doe DNA is unknown. The buck DNA is unknown until it shows in year 2 or 3. If the big ones are dead in the first 2-3 years....they will not be breeding. The unknown button heads and spikes will be.
At three years of age he has already past on a bunch of DNA good or bad. Getting everyone to not shoot a buck until after he is three years old is not going to happen. By the time a buck reaches his full maturity he has been breeding his entire life of six or more years. Those offspring don't disappear from the herd at his death.
 
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pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I never advocated for it one way or the other. Shoot what you want.

Studies have shown that the older bucks will take care of the majority of the breeding unless there is a huge surplus of does with a lack of older bucks.

Seems like it was something like 75-80%. The rest of them get what’s left.

So are you seeing what I mean where this can definitely hurt the heard over a couple decades? Have you hunted those places where it seems like half of the bucks are cow horns or other weird traits?
 

FITZH2O

Old Mossy Horns
This thread is not to debate trophy hunting or bring out the D*** measuring tape. Just my observations on the last 10yrs or so hunting all across the piedmont of NC.

On the properties I hunt around the house (Rowan/Cabarrus counties), I’ve had several bucks on camera over the years that were definitely 4.5+ yrs old and I can count on one hand how many would gross over 115”. It always amazes me that the genetics can differ so much by traveling 1.5-2hrs.

These two bucks were aged the same and had similar body weights. I know an example of two deer doesn’t make anything absolute, but based on trail cameras, what others I know have seen or killed, and deer you see on the forums and at the DDC, I think this is a good example of “potential” differences in genetics between two areas of the state...

98” gross, Cabarrus co
b3627cb0bccfd5967a069ae251f7ed27.jpg


140” gross, Orange co.
ea0e8c44dc8ef82c1dc8937a1034a900.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I personally think that nutrition has more of a roll in antler size across an area that small.
But I don’t know... there are small areas where you get pockets of antler traits, like no/small brow tines or crab claws at the end. Hell, who knows, I don’t. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

Greg

Old Mossy Horns
You'll never know to what degree genetics plays a role in buck antler size until nutrition (and age) are addressed.

I think the fact that antler size can vary dramatically within a few miles (look at soil and food) is pretty telling.
 

JONOV

Old Mossy Horns
You'll never know to what degree genetics plays a role in buck antler size until nutrition (and age) are addressed.

I think the fact that antler size can vary dramatically within a few miles (look at soil and food) is pretty telling.
Agree...Unless one has a ranch like they have in Texas where they can fence thousands upon thousands of acres, and a budget to feed them accordingly. l'm not saying that antlers aren't affected by genetics, but there are so many other factors that it's impossible to attribute much to them. Not to mention that even in states that are known for really big deer like Wisconsin, there are parts of the state that aren't as good as others.
 

ScottyB

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
[QUOTE="pattersonj11, post: 850345, member: 1277"

I fully believe that in many places, the larger deer are shot year after year....so inferior ones now are the breeding stock. That doesn’t matter overnight...but twenty years of that will produce an abundance of scrubs.
[/QUOTE]
So by this theory.......6 point scrub that was fathered by a 130” buck 2 years ago.......has bad genes and because he has not reached full maturity will only produce scrub bucks if he is breeding......come on man......you don’t really believe that do you? Genes don’t change.....you get what your parents brought to the party.......I buy the soil playing a part in it........to see the full results of the genes AGE is everything......a spike can be a nice 8 pointer given a few years...... a nice 8 can be a huge 8 once full body weight is reached and all other factors play in their favor.......just sayin.......genes are everything IMO
 

ScottyB

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Speaking of NC deer, I think the greatest difference is in nutrition. Here in Chatham County we can kill big antlers off of the farm lands but basically the same deer living the life of a woods deer just can't grow the same sort of rack. Sure, genetics makes a difference but genetics play less a part when you talk about deer living just 10 miles apart.
With all due respect Aaron......I find that to be different in my Chatham experience. In the places I hunt around NE Chatham we have no crops, but it is common for us to have multiple bucks between 100-130 inches each year. The biggest bodied and most beautiful bucks I have ever hunted in an acorn forest. So in my opinion it all goes back to the genes that are in the area and age. IMO if it was all about nutrition.....we would have the largest deer in the state in the East.......feeding on soybeans and peanuts most of the year........just my thoughts!
 

pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
[QUOTE="pattersonj11, post: 850345, member: 1277"

I fully believe that in many places, the larger deer are shot year after year....so inferior ones now are the breeding stock. That doesn’t matter overnight...but twenty years of that will produce an abundance of scrubs.
So by this theory.......6 point scrub that was fathered by a 130” buck 2 years ago.......has bad genes and because he has not reached full maturity will only produce scrub bucks if he is breeding......come on man......you don’t really believe that do you? Genes don’t change.....you get what your parents brought to the party.......I buy the soil playing a part in it........to see the full results of the genes AGE is everything......a spike can be a nice 8 pointer given a few years...... a nice 8 can be a huge 8 once full body weight is reached and all other factors play in their favor.......just sayin.......genes are everything IMO
[/QUOTE]

No I’m not saying anything about 6 pointers. Am I not writing clear or is it not being read clear?

I’m saying that you have no idea of a deers potential until at least three years old. You have only a hint at that point.

When you shoot the big 3-4 year olds and don’t thin the other mature bucks out, eventually you have lots of breeding being done by bucks that you didn’t want to shoot anyway. If you shoot only mature old bucks, then the younger bucks will be the breeding stock. Maybe the big ones bred the young ones.....but there is no way to know who is who.

Originally when I replied to this post, I was simply stating that some areas are lacking good genes because they have been killing the good genes out. Once in a while you will always have a good deer possibly due to recessive genes.

Read up on the breeding. In most places, older bucks are doing the majority of the breeding. If the only old bucks left are the ones you didn’t want to shoot....then genes are being passed that you don’t want to shoot.

It’s genetics, it’s statistics, but in every way, the genes will trend downward over time in some areas.
 

pattersonj11

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
With all due respect Aaron......I find that to be different in my Chatham experience. In the places I hunt around NE Chatham we have no crops, but it is common for us to have multiple bucks between 100-130 inches each year. The biggest bodied and most beautiful bucks I have ever hunted in an acorn forest. So in my opinion it all goes back to the genes that are in the area and age. IMO if it was all about nutrition.....we would have the largest deer in the state in the East.......feeding on soybeans and peanuts most of the year........just my thoughts!

The Pittsboro and surrounding 10 miles have genes, less pressure, and good soil for deer. I don’t know what is in the soil that makes it beneficial, but there are trace minerals found there that do not occur much in the East.
 

stevewes2004

Four Pointer
It doesn’t matter how much nutrition, corn, soybeans, alfalfa, etc you pump into a deer, if he’s got poor genetics he’s not gonna grow big antlers.

(Given the same age deer)

I wouldn’t deny that soil and nutrition matters a lot, but for the areas I hunt around the house (Rowan/Cabarrus), you very rarely see bucks with 10+ point typical frames or stickers, split tines, or tines much longer than about 7-8”.


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stevewes2004

Four Pointer
The buck that’s broadside I believe is 4.5. He’s all of 120”. Couple 2.5-3.5yo bucks in there.. In 10yrs, I’ve never had a buck with antlers any bigger than that on camera, and I usually have one or two bucks that make it to 4.5 in this spot. These bucks are in an agricultural area of Cabarrus co and eat soy beans and corn every year.

You can’t tell me that these bucks would start growing more and longer tines, adding kickers, etc just by enriching the soils..

b1e662c31efc7deb0a677d269483b061.jpg



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