Flounder Reg Changes

darenative

Ten Pointer

It also seems that the so many sharks now idea might just be plain wrong.
I know what i see daily and will trust my own eyes to support my stance over a phd students views on the subject. I can promise you i spend more time on the water than jr phd.
 

JohnBoat

Banned
I know what i see daily and will trust my own eyes to support my stance over a phd students views on the subject. I can promise you i spend more time on the water than jr phd.
Well I mean they do these studies by specifically targeting sharks to get an idea of populations. One of the studies has been going on for decades in NC waters.

Also, why the disdain for people with higher education? Just because someone has a degree means they can't be an outdoor enthusiast? Or it somehow makes them a wuss? Plenty of guys with PHD's spend tons of time on the water. There are people with PHD's whos job pretty much requires them to be on the water a ton.
 

darenative

Ten Pointer
Well I mean they do these studies by specifically targeting sharks to get an idea of populations. One of the studies has been going on for decades in NC waters.

Also, why the disdain for people with higher education? Just because someone has a degree means they can't be an outdoor enthusiast? Or it somehow makes them a wuss? Plenty of guys with PHD's spend tons of time on the water. There are people with PHD's whos job pretty much requires them to be on the water a ton.
No disdain against those with a phd.
Yep, the studies have been going on for decades in nc. We toted around a couple of research phd guys when we used to longline for sharks off o'cock back in the late 80's early 90's. Good guys, but not in any sense of the word watermen or even fishermen, and not real handy on a boat, also the type that couldnt see the forest for the trees. I also know how marine fisheries/ NOAA extrapolate data from very few sample trips and use that data to open or close fisheries up and down the coast. A prime example of that is the red snapper fishery in the SE.
So no, i dont put a lot of weight on a guy in a phd program doing a study that contradicts what life long watermen are seeing.
When it comes to fisheries research, academia and reality are often polar opposites.
Oh btw, you read way too much into last post. How you inferred that I was calling phd's wusses is a pretty good stretch compared to what was actually stated...you dont work for NOAA doing sampling do ya:ROFLMAO:
 
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JohnBoat

Banned
No disdain against those with a phd.
Yep, the studies have been going on for decades in nc. We toted around a couple of research phd guys when we used to longline for sharks off o'cock back in the late 80's early 90's. Good guys, but not in any sense of the word watermen or even fishermen, and not real handy on a boat, also the type that couldnt see the forest for the trees. I also know how marine fisheries/ NOAA extrapolate data from very few sample trips and use that data to open or close fisheries up and down the coast. A prime example of that is the red snapper fishery in the SE.
So no, i dont put a lot of weight on a guy in a phd program doing a study that contradicts what life long watermen are seeing.
When it comes to fisheries research, academia and reality are often polar opposites.
Oh btw, you read way too much into last post. How you inferred that I was calling phd's wusses is a pretty good stretch compared to what was actually stated...you dont work for NOAA doing sampling do ya:ROFLMAO:
So I would like to here your solution to our crappy management in NC if you have invalidated most scientific studies done on our fisheries. What should we do?
 

darenative

Ten Pointer
So I would like to here your solution to our crappy management in NC if you have invalidated most scientific studies done on our fisheries. What should we do?
There's no one thing thats gonna put us on the right track management wise, imo.
Not sure how you infer that i invalidated most scientific studies. I just said i could sniff out the bullshit studies that contradict real world experiences i've encountered.
 

JohnBoat

Banned
There's no one thing thats gonna put us on the right track management wise, imo.
Not sure how you infer that i invalidated most scientific studies. I just said i could sniff out the bullshit studies that contradict real world experiences i've encountered.
I realize there is no one thing but you seem to only offer criticism, not solutions. I would just like to at least know what you think the state could do? At least what issues to address?
 

darenative

Ten Pointer
I realize there is no one thing but you seem to only offer criticism, not solutions. I would just like to at least know what you think the state could do? At least what issues to address?
Our main problem in nc is not dealing with the main culprit that is eating away at the foundation of our fisheries. That, in my opinion is the big corporate owned trawlers working inside waters. We as fishermen (rec and commercial) are to divided to force the state to do much of anything about it.
We need to fix one problem at a time and quit letting special interest groups on either side fk it up for everybody. All the 3 letter acronym groups on both sides of the issue just keep the water muddied up and keep fishermen divided on topics of contention. You'll always have slick talking snake oil salesmen types promising better fishing if you pay your $$ yearly dues. So far that crap has only gotten us more regulation and more division on both sides.
 

chrispowell

Six Pointer
Our main problem in nc is not dealing with the main culprit that is eating away at the foundation of our fisheries. That, in my opinion is the big corporate owned trawlers working inside waters. We as fishermen (rec and commercial) are to divided to force the state to do much of anything about it.
We need to fix one problem at a time and quit letting special interest groups on either side fk it up for everybody. All the 3 letter acronym groups on both sides of the issue just keep the water muddied up and keep fishermen divided on topics of contention. You'll always have slick talking snake oil salesmen types promising better fishing if you pay your $$ yearly dues. So far that crap has only gotten us more regulation and more division on both sides.
Agreed, but there is also the problem of commercial fishermen not willing to speak out against certain types of overly destructive commercial fishing methods. For example, I (recreational fisherman) would gladly accept gillnetting if the compromise was no inside shrimping. At some point, the gillnetters are going to have to come out against the shrimpers that are killing their future.
 

JohnBoat

Banned
Our main problem in nc is not dealing with the main culprit that is eating away at the foundation of our fisheries. That, in my opinion is the big corporate owned trawlers working inside waters. We as fishermen (rec and commercial) are to divided to force the state to do much of anything about it.
We need to fix one problem at a time and quit letting special interest groups on either side fk it up for everybody. All the 3 letter acronym groups on both sides of the issue just keep the water muddied up and keep fishermen divided on topics of contention. You'll always have slick talking snake oil salesmen types promising better fishing if you pay your $$ yearly dues. So far that crap has only gotten us more regulation and more division on both sides.
I'd love to have out of state ships banned from NC waters. Maybe put a restriction on head rope lengths and number of nets that can be trawled at a time. This would skew the market toward smaller boats and make small time local operations much more viable. It would be great if money could be put into finding a way to trawl without destroying the bottom as well. Get the giant steel hulled trawlers out of our waters.

The only problem I see is that I don't think you will see the commercial side do this. The small timers support the corporate guys because they have the money to lobby and keep restrictions off. So your idea sounds good I just don't see it happening.
 

JohnBoat

Banned
One thing is for damn sure, they need to hand out a bag of Huggies and a pacifier for each rec license just in case they don’t catch their limit.
You talk about everyone working together then post this. You have been bashing rec fisherman for much of the thread.
 

Justin

Old Mossy Horns
You talk about everyone working together then post this. You have been bashing rec fisherman for much of the thread.
Well the irony in whining over a season closing for a resource that doesn’t exist is nothing short of funny, as is the crying over being treated fairly..... by a group of people that bash others for crying about their perception of not being treated fairly on other isssues.
Then the whole shark debacle. It doesn’t take a genius to see a problem and a definite recovery in toothy critters..... but no, some people cherry pick data from tiny samples, to potentially further their agenda to keep getting funding for such.... and it’s the gospel truth.
 

JohnBoat

Banned
Well the irony in whining over a season closing for a resource that doesn’t exist is nothing short of funny, as is the crying over being treated fairly..... by a group of people that bash others for crying about their perception of not being treated fairly on other isssues.
Then the whole shark debacle. It doesn’t take a genius to see a problem and a definite recovery in toothy critters..... but no, some people cherry pick data from tiny samples, to potentially further their agenda to keep getting funding for such.... and it’s the gospel truth.
I still don't get why you think the sharks are a problem. Like you said, it's a recovery. Which means their numbers were a good bit below normal in past decades. What we see now is just them getting back to normal populations. The fact that some think it's a problem is a testimonial to our poor fisheries management. Normal predatory populations shouldn't be killing our fishing. Why even point them out as an issue when they aren't? They are only a "problem" if a lot of stuff way up the line of things that matter in management has gone wrong.
 

darenative

Ten Pointer
Agreed, but there is also the problem of commercial fishermen not willing to speak out against certain types of overly destructive commercial fishing methods. For example, I (recreational fisherman) would gladly accept gillnetting if the compromise was no inside shrimping. At some point, the gillnetters are going to have to come out against the shrimpers that are killing their future.
Can you blame them?
I'd love to have out of state ships banned from NC waters. Maybe put a restriction on head rope lengths and number of nets that can be trawled at a time. This would skew the market toward smaller boats and make small time local operations much more viable. It would be great if money could be put into finding a way to trawl without destroying the bottom as well. Get the giant steel hulled trawlers out of our waters.

The only problem I see is that I don't think you will see the commercial side do this. The small timers support the corporate guys because they have the money to lobby and keep restrictions off. So your idea sounds good I just don't see it happening.
Therein, lies the problem i have with the rabid rec groups. They all but force the small commercial guys into that defensive position/stance by default. Who's at fault in that situation.
Is cca initiating change or do they have culpability in the stalemate thats gripping our fisheries management in nc?

In my opinion they are just adding fuel to the fire.
 

JohnBoat

Banned
Can you blame them?

Therein, lies the problem i have with the rabid rec groups. They all but force the small commercial guys into that defensive position/stance by default. Who's at fault in that situation.
Is cca initiating change or do they have culpability in the stalemate thats gripping our fisheries management in nc?

In my opinion they are just adding fuel to the fire.
It's the chicken or the egg imo. The comm side has fought any restrictions for decades. So the rec side got less tolerant of working together and decided to just get rid of them if there not willing to work with them. I don't think blame can be placed solely on one side in this situation. Unfortunately I doubt it gets better. In the end I believe the small time "family" operation are gonna go down with the ship that is the big corporate operations.
 

HotSoup

Ten Pointer
One thing is for damn sure, they need to hand out a bag of Huggies and a pacifier for each rec license just in case they don’t catch their limit.
Choke on your huggie and shove your pacifier up your ass. I have no problem with a man making a living but it needs to be fair on both sides. The closure is due to the rec side supposedly have already maxed out the "quota" for the year....bullshit. No factual data exists to prove so.
 

Justin

Old Mossy Horns
Choke on your huggie and shove your pacifier up your ass. I have no problem with a man making a living but it needs to be fair on both sides. The closure is due to the rec side supposedly have already maxed out the "quota" for the year....bullshit. No factual data exists to prove so.
I’m not the one who needs it. I’m old enough to know that the fair only comes around once a year 😉
 

darenative

Ten Pointer
Choke on your huggie and shove your pacifier up your ass. I have no problem with a man making a living but it needs to be fair on both sides. The closure is due to the rec side supposedly have already maxed out the "quota" for the year....bullshit. No factual data exists to prove so.
Yep it is BS. It's hard for me to believe that the flounder population is in such bad shape if it only took about 8 months for the recs to reach their quota. Damn, I guess a whole bunch of people got really good a flounder fishing over the winter. My guess is somebody is cooking the books with the survey data if the truth be known.
 

chrispowell

Six Pointer
Yep it is BS. It's hard for me to believe that the flounder population is in such bad shape if it only took about 8 months for the recs to reach their quota. Damn, I guess a whole bunch of people got really good a flounder fishing over the winter. My guess is somebody is cooking the books with the survey data if the truth be known.
Quota had nothing to do with it. The DMF staff stuck the rec closure language in at the last minute to put a poison pill into the effort to reform the commercial flounder season. In other words they said, "you want flounder season reform for the commercial side, well bend over and take it for the rec side." What they didn't count on was the rec voters on the DMF commission saying, fine, we'll play your stupid game if that's what it takes to bring the resource back.
 

darenative

Ten Pointer
Quota had nothing to do with it. The DMF staff stuck the rec closure language in at the last minute to put a poison pill into the effort to reform the commercial flounder season. In other words they said, "you want flounder season reform for the commercial side, well bend over and take it for the rec side." What they didn't count on was the rec voters on the DMF commission saying, fine, we'll play your stupid game if that's what it takes to bring the resource back.
Made a couple of phone calls and damned if they didn't. Slightly differing versions of the story from side to side. Sure would hate to sit on the mfc in a rec seat if they follow through with closing rec flounder and commercial stays open.
 

sky hawk

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
^ That's an interesting story...

The DMF biologists were so opposed to reforming the commercial season that they tried to kill it? Even though they are the ones saying there is overfishing, and we need to take emergency measures?

Maybe you guys can fill in the gaps a little for those of us who aren't up to date on the positions of current MFC members.
 

wanchese

Ten Pointer
^ That's an interesting story...

The DMF biologists were so opposed to reforming the commercial season that they tried to kill it? Even though they are the ones saying there is overfishing, and we need to take emergency measures?

Maybe you guys can fill in the gaps a little for those of us who aren't up to date on the positions of current MFC members.
3 commercial members giving the rec side the finger, one at-large seat that votes whatever way the wind is blowing and 5 members giving the commercial side the finger.
 

Downeast

Ten Pointer
Cormorants and sharks. Ha!

What about all those damn people out there. Don't you think they are having an impact on the fisheries too? :ROFLMAO:
 

chrispowell

Six Pointer
^ That's an interesting story...

The DMF biologists were so opposed to reforming the commercial season that they tried to kill it? Even though they are the ones saying there is overfishing, and we need to take emergency measures?

Maybe you guys can fill in the gaps a little for those of us who aren't up to date on the positions of current MFC members.
The DMF is being forced to do this by the Atlantic States Marine Fisheries Commission. DMF biologists are not into conservation. They are into "maximum sustainable yield." Recs have the most votes on the DMF commission now. The poison pill was a political move to try to force the recs to kill something that the recs wanted to support. In other words, the DMF wanted to be able to go back to the ASMFC and say we tried to do what you wanted but our rec-dominated commission wouldn't go for it. It almost worked too.
 
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