Fawns suck at survival....

Wildlifer

Twelve Pointer
one could hypothesize that predators get a bad rap when seen with a fawn. It's likely that they were scavengers and not predators at the time. Unless the kill is witnessed it looks like you would have something like a 50/50 chance of them actually making that kill.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
Now, I know most does raised two fawns in my area for years, until coyotes galore. Now, your lucky to see one fawn with several does. This may be true in Delaware but I call BS here.
 

Mack in N.C.

Old Mossy Horns
I have always figured that older does were better moms. Just makes sense, same as in humans. a 30 year old is gonna be a better mom most times over a 14 year old.

and it is why I dont shoot does with little ones. the longer she tends to the fawn(s) I think the little ones get smarter and have a better chance for survival.
 

Ldsoldier

Old Mossy Horns
Now, I know most does raised two fawns in my area for years, until coyotes galore. Now, your lucky to see one fawn with several does. This may be true in Delaware but I call BS here.
Do you really know that or is that just what you’ve seen? These studies are carefully designed and supported by advanced statistics. You probably did see a bunch of does with two fawns, but that doesn’t mean you saw all the fawns that died before they were old enough to pick up on your trail camera. I’m not saying that a novel predator can’t or won’t have an influence, but it’s not automatic. Like the article said, fawns suck at survival, and young does suck at raising them. There are lots of factors that go into everything in nature. It’s never one thing.
 

Jett

Eight Pointer
And we all know studies are correct and unbiased. :rolleyes:
Sarcasm intended!
It is a shame when you can no longer trust what you read and hear in these foolish times. So many "studies" seem to be agenda driven.
 
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roundball

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
Not interested in debating anyone, just offering other study sources for information on the subject.
FWIW, the Internet is loaded with studies about the lowered Fawn survival rate due to Coyotes.

Multiple instances of having game cameras set up on Coyote dens recording double digits of Fawn's being brught back to the den to feed the litter.
One example is from Mossy Oak:


[ and an overall list studies from this search ]
.
.
 

country

Ten Pointer
Now, I know most does raised two fawns in my area for years, until coyotes galore. Now, your lucky to see one fawn with several does. This may be true in Delaware but I call BS here.
I agree. Prior to coyotes, I'd see majority of does with 2 fawns and some with 3. Now you rarely see does with multiple fawns and see a lot with none.
 

Wildlifer

Twelve Pointer
Not interested in debating anyone, just offering other study sources for information on the subject.
FWIW, the Internet is loaded with studies about the lowered Fawn survival rate due to Coyotes.

Multiple instances of having game cameras set up on Coyote dens recording double digits of Fawn's being brught back to the den to feed the litter.
One example is from Mossy Oak:


[ and an overall list studies from this search ]
.
.
See my previous comment, that research plays right into it. A fawn being brought back to the den doesn’t necessarily mean the coyote killed it. It’s very possible even likely it was scavenged.
I don’t have a good study to post but are actually coyote kills additive or compensatory? Do we see populations declining in the presents of coyotes or remaining the same? Just some food for thought.
 

Ldsoldier

Old Mossy Horns
Ever consider that there may be other issues? Correlation and causation are not the same thing. I’m not sure what “agenda” there is to protect coyotes unless you buy into the insurance company conspiracy theories. Along the same time frame that coyotes have moved in we’ve also started shooting more does, which means you have less older does raising fawns and more younger does attempting to. We’ve also seen more and more habitat destroyed, resulting in less good forage for lactating does which means less or lower quality milk to feed their fawns and less good fawning cover for them to hide in. But sure, let’s just blame everything on the boogeyman...🤷‍♀️
 

Hunting Nut

Ten Pointer
Ya'll can come get all the coyotes off my hunting land and the area around it.
I'll keep the fawns. I'd love to see the amount of fawns again like I used to before all the damned yotes showed up.
Come and get 'em and move them to your place. (y)
 

Wildlifer

Twelve Pointer
^ so shall we start another conversation about coyotes and density dependent reproduction? Better to have a few yotes than to try and eradicate them?
 

Hunting Nut

Ten Pointer
^ No, not interested in a debate. I'm not gonna change my mind. A debate would be useless.

"A few" ? I'm talking about more than "a few". In my area, they did not exist at all until mid '90's. I've watched things change dramatically since then.

All I said was you can come pick them up and move them to your area. I didn't go into the vermin I find them to be. I didn't go into the fact that on sight, I try to kill every one of them I can. That's my right from the landowner and from the NCWRC. I detest them being around here. They weren't here from the early 70's through the mid 90's and things were just fine without them. Can't speak to prior to early 70's and don't care. Everything in this area was better off without them.
 

Wildlifer

Twelve Pointer
Easy there, conversation not debate. Also not advocating for them or saying what you should or shouldn’t do. I don’t care one way or another.
The biology of coyotes and their relationship with man is fascinating. Man tried to eradicate them in the West by every means possible and failed.
By all research and attempts they are virtually impossible to get rid of.
lots of factors come in to play with dealing with them but that’s for another day. Hopefully our native species will learn to adapt to a novel predator.
 

Hunting Nut

Ten Pointer
Yep. They're here to stay. Don't matter what we do.
I do hate them being here.

I'll concede this. They are as sharp as anything I've ever seen in the woods. They even seem to have a "perceived" distance that they are "safe" from us.
That, has been the demise of a few that found theirselves in my scope.
 

Jett

Eight Pointer
I did my own study. Less fake wolves, hybrids and yotes yielded far more deer, turkeys, rabbits and maybe more quail (not certain on this one yet).

image1-1.jpeg

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The pro wolf and coyote nonsense is an anti hunting agenda. Plain and simple. The compensatory breeding argument is a farce and is not backed up by real data. It is a myth peddled by the pro canid crowd. They tell the lie enough in hopes it will be viewed as fact. It is a lie nonetheless.
 

Jett

Eight Pointer
Purty work, Jett !!!
That was just a tip of the iceberg. We have made a huge difference on this farm. We actually trapped zero coyotes and woofs last year. That is how much of a difference a good predator control program can make. Don't drink the liberal Kool Aid. Coyotes by whatever name can be controlled.
 

Wildlifer

Twelve Pointer
American coyote would be a good read. Interesting how biology turns political.
Highly intensive predator control works, landscape level not so much. The key is to don’t ever stop controlling. Most people and managers don’t have to time or resources to effectively manage them.
 

Jett

Eight Pointer
American coyote would be a good read. Interesting how biology turns political.
Highly intensive predator control works, landscape level not so much. The key is to don’t ever stop controlling. Most people and managers don’t have to time or resources to effectively manage them.
So sorry to have opened up a lemonade stand next to your Kool Aid stand. I hope you enjoyed your read of "American Coyote".

Management of coyotes does work as you just admitted and simply because you may think it requires more effort than you deem is appropriate or feasible does not justify the misinformation manufactured and disseminated by anti hunting liberals.
 

Wildlifer

Twelve Pointer
:ROFLMAO: Man oh man full of assumptions aren’t we . I didn’t express any of my options on what’s right or wrong. Spending 2 years talking with farmers across north and South Carolina about predator control I’m am only relaying a common sentiment that they simply do not have the time or resources needed to control them.
I also don’t suggest you read anything you do not wish to read. It’s a history book with no agenda but I would hate to unwilling force more information on anyone .
Shoot all the coyotes you want, good on you for being able to do that. If you get a little giddy feeling sticking it to a liberal as well, even better.
 

Wildlifer

Twelve Pointer
I was doing a quail study. Specially the effects of cp33 field boards on quail and other upland birds.
The predator part was informal and not part of the study. We just ended up having conversations with most landowners about predators since we were dealing with quail.
 

Jett

Eight Pointer
Do you work with NCWRC, USDA or NRCS?
Quail hunting is my passion and I wish as much effort could be put into restoring quail populations as wolf populations.


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DRS

Old Mossy Horns
All the research done in the Southeast, about the effects of coyotes on fawn survival are now null. I don't think so. Many a biologist say there is a difference in the South and they don't know why, but it is. It has been proven predator removal increased fawn survival.
 

Wildlifer

Twelve Pointer
Do you work with NCWRC, USDA or NRCS?
Quail hunting is my passion and I wish as much effort could be put into restoring quail populations as wolf populations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
This was when I was with NC State for a research project. My buddy who I was working with now is with Virginia fish and game. I tried the wildlife route for awhile and for various reasons went another route. Now I stay involved in wildlife on an amateur level.
 

Jett

Eight Pointer
They very well may, but the bears are not non native invasive and protected predators like the fake woofs and coyotes are in our five county area of Dare, Tyrrell, Hyde, Washington and Beaufort.
 
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