Deer management.

Lowg08

Ten Pointer
I know my dad always talks about how drastic it has been compared to the 70s 80s. He said I wouldn’t believe it. I’ve been kinda surfing other states stats. The one thing that I have seen consistently across the board is going bow only helps the population and buck size. Look at states with heavy weapon restrictions. SWC, shotgun, ML bow only, no rifle.
 

Wirehead

Eight Pointer
I know my dad always talks about how drastic it has been compared to the 70s 80s. He said I wouldn’t believe it. I’ve been kinda surfing other states stats. The one thing that I have seen consistently across the board is going bow only helps the population and buck size. Look at states with heavy weapon restrictions. SWC, shotgun, ML bow only, no rifle.
same here… I’ve heard stories of never seeing deer in the 70’s/80’s and can still remember when it was one heck of an event to see a deer when driving down the road.

I would not be opposed at all to bow season extending through the rut. However, I do fear the number of wounded / unrecovered deer would sky rocket…
 

Lowg08

Ten Pointer
I would not be opposed at all to bow season extending through the rut. However, I do fear the number of wounded / unrecovered deer would sky rocket…
I can also agree with that. I have a little cousin I’ve chewed out for shooting them and if they can’t walk right to it just shoot another. That junk ticks me off.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
It's a cycle. Many generations seen good harvest, many seen bad harvest. Currently SE nc is into the 1950 harvest cycle

NCWRC policy since the 1980s has been to control deer numbers in SE NC and now the policy is to "stabilize" them
 
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Southern

Ten Pointer
We certainly had a cycle like this in the 30's and 40's. My family goes back several hundred years in SENC. My grandfather used to talk about how rare and newsworthy it was to see a deer. They had turkeys out the wazoo though. Interesting, we have the turkeys back and no deer again.

While I do agree bears and deer share meals, what is not mentioned is how those same bears kill fawns when they are dropped. Just because adult deer may not be afraid of bears, this does not address the fact that they do kill fawns.

What I find interesting, is if we are going back to the 30's and 40's era of almost zero deer population, we got there pretty quickly, 10-15 years ago, we were covered up in deer ( and I mean the region, not just me) and now we have basically zero. A friend told me today that he had 8 people hunting his club last night and they saw one doe and one cowhorn and 14 bears and unfortunately this was a good report for them.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
EHD, predators and poor habitat are all variables. Pine plantations sprayed to kill other plants create poor habitat in many areas in eastern NC. Add in EHD, then predators hold the numbers down. Still plenty of deer in most places, you just have to hunt them. Hunters in some areas got accustomed to large numbers of deer, now they are spoiled. Keeping tabs on doe harvest is key whether you have too many or no deer. Doe harvest needs to be tailored to the local area, best done by the local hunters. The State needs to set regulations liberal enough to allow flexibility to allow for these differences, while insuring that the deer herd over all is in good condition. Nothing more or less.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
The next discussion is do either-sex days need to be reduced in the NE counties from maximum.

Apparently the WRC is discussing that internally.
 

30/06

Twelve Pointer
The reality is there is a ton of hunting pressure in NC, heard more shots last year than I ever did. On top of high pressure we have one of the longest rifle seasons in the country, it overlaps the rut and many counties allow dog hunting. It’s amazing we have any 3+ year old bucks. States with consistent quality either have one buck limit, limited rifle seasons, or gun seasons that don’t overlap the rut. Hunting those states is a lot more interesting than hunting in NC, just more bucks and better daylight movement.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
The reality is there is a ton of hunting pressure in NC, heard more shots last year than I ever did. On top of high pressure we have one of the longest rifle seasons in the country, it overlaps the rut and many counties allow dog hunting. It’s amazing we have any 3+ year old bucks. States with consistent quality either have one buck limit, limited rifle seasons, or gun seasons that don’t overlap the rut. Hunting those states is a lot more interesting than hunting in NC, just more bucks and better daylight movement.
Ease up there a little, the eastern regions had the best age structure in NC. The least percentage of 1.5 year olds in the harvest and the most 3.5 year olds of any region. This was before the 2 buck limit was enacted. I like the long season and hunting with hounds just fine. The percentages of harvested young bucks in eastern NC were less than even in some of the Midwestern States. There are threads on here where I have posted all the info back when we were debating the 2 buck limit for eastern NC.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
The next discussion is do either-sex days need to be reduced in the NE counties from maximum.

Apparently the WRC is discussing that internally.
Some areas do need less doe harvest some don't. The regulations need to be left alone and hunters need to make to that choice. There are significant differences in deer densities between counties and even smaller areas within counties. There are places near me where I can see 20+ deer in fields less than 20 acres and then a few miles to see 5 or more in a field at one time is rare these days. If someone has low deer density and keeps shooting does I can assure you they will stop by default.
 

Lowg08

Ten Pointer
Some areas do need less doe harvest some don't. The regulations need to be left alone and hunters need to make to that choice. There are significant differences in deer densities between counties and even smaller areas within counties. There are places near me where I can see 20+ deer in fields less than 20 acres and then a few miles to see 5 or more in a field at one time is rare these days. If someone has low deer density and keeps shooting does I can assure you they will stop by default.
What percentage of hunters do you think have that much self control? It sure ain’t the ones shooting does in July cutting out the back strap and leaving the rest on the side of the road.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
Some areas do need less doe harvest some don't. The regulations need to be left alone and hunters need to make to that choice. There are significant differences in deer densities between counties and even smaller areas within counties. There are places near me where I can see 20+ deer in fields less than 20 acres and then a few miles to see 5 or more in a field at one time is rare these days. If someone has low deer density and keeps shooting does I can assure you they will stop by default.

I don't hunt that part of the state but how many hunters have enough land to control what their neighbors do in terms of doe killing?
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
I don't hunt that part of the state but how many hunters have enough land to control what their neighbors do in terms of doe killing?
More than you would think. There many clubs in this area who control enough land to make that effective. Many clubs have doe and/or buck limits stricter than state regulations. Most deer hunters want to see deer. Even the hound hunters want deer to run. Yes, I have even seen dog clubs make does off limits. Nothing is perfect though either way. The problem I see is if you tighten regulations then need to kill more due to crop damage a hunter can't with the limit on tags. Depredation permits are then used and hunters loose again. I have dealt with this issue in the past.
 
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shotgunner

Ten Pointer
I dont know, I have little confidence in some of the biologists. I have been told some crazy stuff over the years.
One issue I have is after talking with NCWRC, they still are oblivious to the changing deer herd in SENC, around the non agriculture areas, primarily. They are ignoring the repeated intel from land owners, hunters, clubs, etc who have seen the deer numbers around Green Swamp, Angola Bay, Holly Shelter, Colly Swamp, etc plummet in recent years. Sure they may not be able to do anything about it, but I don't get the feeling they even realize it is happening. I know after 40+ years of hunting SENC, the deer herd is about extinct in some areas and certainly way off in others. I pulled cameras the other day on a farm I have not seen a live deer on in 4 years. 3000 photos in a week, five had a deer in them, the rest were bear. I have hunted this tract since 1988. Used to be easy to see 50 deer day while hunting and one morning I counted 23 separate bucks, now I cant see A deer and nothing around me has changed.
Not sure what the answer is but I don't get the feeling they comprehend the change in certain areas.
Absolute Truth. I lived in southeastern NC most of my life and the herd crashed in the late 90's. And I'm not talking just about hunting. I was in the timber industry so I was out in the woods and all over the region on a daily basis. The Green Swamp is probably my favorite place on earth. But it is really sad what it has become and nobody, except those of us that hunt there, seems to care.
 

CRC

Old Mossy Horns
More than you would think. There many clubs in this area who control enough land to make that effective. Many clubs have doe and/or buck limits stricter than state regulations. Most deer hunters want to see deer. Even the hound hunters want deer to run. Yes, I have even seen dog clubs make does off limits. Nothing is perfect though either way. The problem I see is if you tighten regulations then need to kill more due to crop damage a hunter can't with the limit on tags. Depredation permits are then used and hunters loose again. I have dealt with this issue in the past.

You are always going to have crop damage unless you have zero deer.

You increase the either-sex days back to maximum in that scenario and reinstate the unlimited bonus tags.

The bonus tags can be reinstated at any time the WRC proposes to do so.
 
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oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
More.coyotes.and predators now than just a few years ago.more.development,more cars on the roads, bluetongue hitting different areas .more hunters,the number of turkey hunters have 10x than just a couple years ago,so I can only imagine deer hunters. Certain counties allow dog hunting.thay kills way more deer than regular hunting and disrupts the rut more than deer not being chased every day by dogs. Alot goes into less deer than years before.
:panic::panic::panic::panic:
Pretty work LC- it's been awhile since you gave us the doom and gloom. I look forward to seeing those.
 

shotgunner

Ten Pointer
More.coyotes.and predators now than just a few years ago.more.development,more cars on the roads, bluetongue hitting different areas .more hunters,the number of turkey hunters have 10x than just a couple years ago,so I can only imagine deer hunters. Certain counties allow dog hunting.thay kills way more deer than regular hunting and disrupts the rut more than deer not being chased every day by dogs. Alot goes into less deer than years before.
Going to have to disagree with this. I heard the old timers talking about not having any deer. We dog hunted the Green Swamp like crazy and the population exploded through the late 70 to mid 90's. To be honest the population crashed after more people started "tree hunting". Never blamed it on that but to be honest the big decline did come a few years after the explosion of still hunting.
 

Southern

Ten Pointer
I am not generally a conspiracy theorist but listening to James Kroll the other day got me thinking. He was talking about new born fawns dying of dehydration and heat exhaustion. I really dont care if anybody believes in global warming or not, I know what I believe. What I do know is that I have a minimum of 1000 hunts in over 30 years on one farm. We used to run through 2-3 bottles of gas a year heating the place in deer season. I have not bought a bottle of gas in 10 years. That is also about the time the deer started disappearing. The heat is worse, bugs are worse, can this have an effect on fawns? I don't know but something has changed and you guys that hunt in the swamp areas of SENC probably agree with me even though alot of guys on here just think we need to hunt harder.
 

Lowg08

Ten Pointer
I am not generally a conspiracy theorist but listening to James Kroll the other day got me thinking. He was talking about new born fawns dying of dehydration and heat exhaustion. I really dont care if anybody believes in global warming or not, I know what I believe. What I do know is that I have a minimum of 1000 hunts in over 30 years on one farm. We used to run through 2-3 bottles of gas a year heating the place in deer season. I have not bought a bottle of gas in 10 years. That is also about the time the deer started disappearing. The heat is worse, bugs are worse, can this have an effect on fawns? I don't know but something has changed and you guys that hunt in the swamp areas of SENC probably agree with me even though alot of guys on here just think we need to hunt harder.
I’m not debating global warming. Lol. I will say though. Deer and fawns survive in harsher spectrums of heat and cold other places. So im not ready to jump on that band wagon. Considering we’ve only gained 9/10 of a degree since the original Industrial Age. ( see what I did there) 😂. According to the state biologist I know. That is not an issue in lack of fawn recruitment. Just as much as bears only count for a very small percentage. I forget the state and time when. It done a comparison between an area with coyotes and bears. Then one with out and the fawn recruitment was identical.
 
Big bucks dont give birth! Does do! They also attract big bucks from your neighbors. Its a balancing act for sure. To many does is just as bad as not enough. In general though just let young deer walk.
 

Lowg08

Ten Pointer
Big bucks dont give birth! Does do! They also attract big bucks from your neighbors. Its a balancing act for sure. To many does is just as bad as not enough. In general though just let young deer walk.
I’m not sure about some of that. For example in Georgia 59% of the does we’re bred by 1.5 (23%) - 2.5(36%) bucks and 41% by 3.5 year olds. On a national average 30-33% of the breeding is done by younger bucks.

in retrospect. None of us may be right. You are correct about to many does being bad but to add to that. How many times do you see mature bucks chasing older does
 
I’m not sure about some of that. For example in Georgia 59% of the does we’re bred by 1.5 (23%) - 2.5(36%) bucks and 41% by 3.5 year olds. On a national average 30-33% of the breeding is done by younger bucks.

in retrospect. None of us may be right. You are correct about to many does being bad but to add to that. How many times do you see mature bucks chasing older does
Those stats are intresting. But how do they come up with those? There is so much unseen in the deer woods as far as mating goes. So few hunters even witness it. Ive seen plenty of chasing and grunting but not so much breeding. Just saying. I assume some sort of dna testing?
 

GUP

Eight Pointer
Ease up there a little, the eastern regions had the best age structure in NC. The least percentage of 1.5 year olds in the harvest and the most 3.5 year olds of any region. This was before the 2 buck limit was enacted. I like the long season and hunting with hounds just fine. The percentages of harvested young bucks in eastern NC were less than even in some of the Midwestern States. There are threads on here where I have posted all the info back when we were debating the 2 buck limit for eastern NC.
I’d like to see the data that supports this. Having hunted the Midwest and know several folks who hunt those states regularly I find this incredibly hard to believe.
 

Southern

Ten Pointer
I’m not debating global warming. Lol. I will say though. Deer and fawns survive in harsher spectrums of heat and cold other places. So im not ready to jump on that band wagon. Considering we’ve only gained 9/10 of a degree since the original Industrial Age. ( see what I did there) 😂. According to the state biologist I know. That is not an issue in lack of fawn recruitment. Just as much as bears only count for a very small percentage. I forget the state and time when. It done a comparison between an area with coyotes and bears. Then one with out and the fawn recruitment was identical.
So what is the problem then since you have all the answers? I am not hunting hard enough?
 

Lowg08

Ten Pointer
Those stats are intresting. But how do they come up with those? There is so much unseen in the deer woods as far as mating goes. So few hunters even witness it. Ive seen plenty of chasing and grunting but not so much breeding. Just saying. I assume some sort of dna testing?
Yes it was a dna test I can not figure out how to add the link for others to look. I literally looked them up today lol
 

Southern

Ten Pointer
I cant accept the 9/10 of a degree crap either. All I know is 90 degrees in October and November and 80's during duck season are not normal. Fall and Winter temps have changed drastically from 20-30 years ago and I dont need a scientist to tell me otherwise.
 

Lowg08

Ten Pointer
So what is the problem then since you have all the answers? I am not hunting hard enough?
No. I don’t have all the answers and I’m sure you hunt plenty hard. I’m rather nerdy and prefer to study these things if I’m not studying apologetics. Like I’ve mentioned before I’m very lucky I go to church with a state biologist. Calories on land scape is a major issue. If there is no food then they must leave. I’m sure if some logging or clear cutting would help develop more browse. Keep the good old boys from killing out of season. Limit the take number and weapons. There are many states that have implemented many better action plans than we have as a state. All of this within reason for county, region and all.
 
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