Deep thought of the day

Helium

Ten Pointer
Isn't that pretty well settled at Baptism as well as the creed/prayer statement of beliefs? Its about the redemption, not everlasting life...

Everlasting life taken alone isn't the gift your initial premise seems to assume. Oddly enough, I remember a high school or Middle School class about Greek Mythology, and there was a character that said "The God's punished me with immortality." Eternity in Hell isn't exactly a gift, is it?

IE Apostles Creed, which is accepted by MANY different Western Christian traditions from Catholics to Anglicans to Presbyterians to Reformed Churches to Lutherans:

..."
conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,

he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come again to judge the living and the dead..."

Or the "traditional version" of the same creed:
"
conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,

and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. "

Southern Baptist Convention:

"…He honored the divine law by His personal obedience, and in His substitutionary death on the cross, He made provision for the redemption of men from sin. "

For a more "Local" branch of Christianity, the Free WIll Baptists:
"He is the One once crucified for man’s sin, the now risen and glorified Savior and Lord who mediates between God and man and who gives us access to the Father through His intercession. "
Redeemed to live eternally with God.

Unredeemed is eternal fire
 

chef

Eight Pointer
EXACTLY! So if one rejects Jesus...their punishment is death...not eternal life in torment. See that makes sense to me.
Death refers to the separation from God.

Assuming we all believe the Bible to be God's inerrent word, looking at Genesis, God said if you eat of the tree "in the day that you eat it, you will surely die" but neither Adam nor eve died that day but actually lived about 1000 more years. So died has to have another meaning. What did happen that day was removal from the garden and separation from God.
 
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41magfan

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
God never meant for us to die physically. The fall of Adam (and all mankind by proxy) began when he sinned. Correctly translated it should read "you shall surely begin to die."
 

Hines

Spike
Today was the first day that I have read threads in the "Chapel." Some interesting conversations, including this one. I appreciate all of you that share your thoughts.
 

nontypical

Eight Pointer
So the scripture I read today was Numbers 20. I remember reading this scripture my first time through reading the Bible and not really understanding why Moses was punished. This time through I read it and still was missing the point. So after a little research I realized that God actually told Moses and Aaron to take the rod and speak to the rock. But Moses used the word we, when speaking to the children of Israel, which took away from God, and struck the rock twice with the rod, instead of just speaking to it, and then the water gushed out.
 

41magfan

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
So the scripture I read today was Numbers 20. I remember reading this scripture my first time through reading the Bible and not really understanding why Moses was punished. This time through I read it and still was missing the point. So after a little research I realized that God actually told Moses and Aaron to take the rod and speak to the rock. But Moses used the word we, when speaking to the children of Israel, which took away from God, and struck the rock twice with the rod, instead of just speaking to it, and then the water gushed out.
Moses didn't get to see the promise land because he portrayed God as harsh and demanding, not because he was disobedient. But, in a round about way, I guess you could say that Moses did get to see the promise land briefly ...... it was just many hundreds of years later.
 

Moose

Administrator
Staff member
Contributor
Romans 6:23 New International Version (NIV)
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.

The second death is eternal.... No life
 

nontypical

Eight Pointer
Moses didn't get to see the promise land because he portrayed God as harsh and demanding, not because he was disobedient. But, in a round about way, I guess you could say that Moses did get to see the promise land briefly ...... it was just many hundreds of years later.
Elaborate. And which version of bible do you read? I am reading the NKJV. It doesn’t really give much detail. Moses was such a key figure in the Old Testament. All the sudden he can’t enter the promised land.
 

41magfan

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Elaborate. And which version of bible do you read? I am reading the NKJV. It doesn’t really give much detail. Moses was such a key figure in the Old Testament. All the sudden he can’t enter the promised land.
IIRC a correct translation of Numbers 20:8 should read "speak about the rock", not speak "to" the rock. That sure changes the context of GOD's instructions to Moses, doesn't it? What do you think Moses should have been telling the people about the miracle source of water they're about to receive? That GOD was angry with them?

And what about "take the staff" instruction .... why didn't GOD say take YOUR staff? I think it's because GOD was referring to Aaron's staff - not Moses. What's the significance of Aaron's staff vs Moses staff? And why would he need a staff at all if he was going to bring forth water with a spoken word?

Interesting stuff, ain't it?

This is just my personal commentary;

The Israelite's were constantly complaining and questioning everything, yet GOD always demonstrated His favor on them. Moses was told to speak about the rock .... not yell at it or strike it. I think Moses chose to demonstrate HIS anger towards the people as though he was in-sync with GOD's feelings, which is what got him in trouble.

If you'll recall, Moses had anger issues all his life and HE was the one that was angry at the people for their grumbling, .... there is no record of GOD being angry. So, Moses took it upon himself to act as though he was speaking for GOD by chastising them and then following that up with the physical demonstration of anger by striking the rock. It's true that Moses didn't do as he was told, but I think it was his misrepresentation of GOD that limited his role as their leader.
 

nontypical

Eight Pointer
IIRC a correct translation of Numbers 20:8 should read "speak about the rock", not speak "to" the rock. That sure changes the context of GOD's instructions to Moses, doesn't it? What do you think Moses should have been telling the people about the miracle source of water they're about to receive? That GOD was angry with them?

And what about "take the staff" instruction .... why didn't GOD say take YOUR staff? I think it's because GOD was referring to Aaron's staff - not Moses. What's the significance of Aaron's staff vs Moses staff? And why would he need a staff at all if he was going to bring forth water with a spoken word?

Interesting stuff, ain't it?

This is just my personal commentary;

The Israelite's were constantly complaining and questioning everything, yet GOD always demonstrated His favor on them. Moses was told to speak about the rock .... not yell at it or strike it. I think Moses chose to demonstrate HIS anger towards the people as though he was in-sync with GOD's feelings, which is what got him in trouble.

If you'll recall, Moses had anger issues all his life and HE was the one that was angry at the people for their grumbling, .... there is no record of GOD being angry. So, Moses took it upon himself to act as though he was speaking for GOD by chastising them and then following that up with the physical demonstration of anger by striking the rock. It's true that Moses didn't do as he was told, but I think it was his misrepresentation of GOD that limited his role as their leader.
Be honest. If you were in Moses position you would have anger issues too. When you say there is no record of God being angry you’re referring to that particular instance right?

Thanks for your input. Moses spoke to God face to face, no one else had that kind of relationship with God that I’m aware of. Then all the sudden he can’t lead the israelites into the promised land after 40 years in the wilderness.

Helium I hope you chime in.
 

41magfan

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Be honest. If you were in Moses position you would have anger issues too. Indeed, I would have ..... but remember, Moses and his attitude represented The Law (which demands perfection) but GOD (conversely) had been demonstrating nothing but HIS grace (unmerited favor) towards His people during the entire Exodus event. The Israelites deserved none of GOD's provisions based on their behavior - it was pure grace.

When you say there is no record of God being angry you’re referring to that particular instance right? Yes ... and if you'll read closely, the only time GOD's attitude changed towards the people (come here vs stay back) was when they proudly boasted about their own abilities to keep His commandments. He hadn't even told them the details concerning what He expected of them yet when they proudly expressed confidence of their own abilities (self-righteousness). Everything changed from that moment on .... it's the pivotal event that established the law vs grace paradigm.

Thanks for your input. Moses spoke to God face to face, no one else had that kind of relationship with God that I’m aware of. Then all the sudden he can’t lead the israelites into the promised land after 40 years in the wilderness.

Helium I hope you chime in.
 

nontypical

Eight Pointer
As far as the children of Israel. I understand it to be because of God’s faithful promise to Abraham, they would inherit the land of milk and honey.

I am asking for believers thoughts on Moses in Numbers 20, where he went wrong. The research I found was most were saying the fact he struck the rock instead of speaking to it in God’s name is were he messed up.
 

41magfan

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
I'm looking forward to getting answers to all of my questions one day but to be completely honest, I find it difficult to live out and put into action the revelation that's already been granted me.
 

nontypical

Eight Pointer
Answers? I’m looking for opinions and discussion. I’m hoping someone has been stumped by this topic like me.

I ain’t looking for answers. I know the solution. JESUS!!!
 

Helium

Ten Pointer
Answers? I’m looking for opinions and discussion. I’m hoping someone has been stumped by this topic like me.

I ain’t looking for answers. I know the solution. JESUS!!!
I think you hit the nail on the head. It’s hard for any of us to swallow BUT God is a very jealous God... and he clearly told Moses what to do but Moses disobeyed. It may seem like a small matter but so can Adam and Eve “simply eating of the forbidden fruit” compared to the consequences it brought.

Ultimately, without Jesus there is no hope of reaching the true Promised Land as it is absolutely impossible for man (except for 1 who was fully God and man = Jesus) to live by and fulfill the law.

In the end, I could theorize and say their is symbolism to it but in the end Moses disobeyed and was punished/disciplined by a Loving God.

Ultimately, the Promised Land-eternal life- heaven isn’t the end goal. The goal is to know God the Father and His Som Jesus Christ. For the Bible says in John 17:3 that to know them is to have eternal life.

Ps Nothing wrong with finite man trying to understand things about our infinite God BUT we must be real careful not to put our standards on him. Ultimately His will and ways are perfect and above our ways. If you don’t believe that... which one of us are willing to sacrifice our son/daughter for the least of these ? Example: would you do so for the mass shooters? I wouldnt
 

nontypical

Eight Pointer
If you don’t believe that... which one of us are willing to sacrifice our son/daughter for the least of these ? Example: would you do so for the mass shooters? I wouldnt
Good point. I often think about Abraham willingly leading Isaac to the mountain top knowing he was gonna have to sacrifice him. This was after waiting to be over 100 years old just to have him.
 

badlandbucks

Ten Pointer
IIRC a correct translation of Numbers 20:8 should read "speak about the rock", not speak "to" the rock. That sure changes the context of GOD's instructions to Moses, doesn't it? What do you think Moses should have been telling the people about the miracle source of water they're about to receive? That GOD was angry with them?

And what about "take the staff" instruction .... why didn't GOD say take YOUR staff? I think it's because GOD was referring to Aaron's staff - not Moses. What's the significance of Aaron's staff vs Moses staff? And why would he need a staff at all if he was going to bring forth water with a spoken word?

Interesting stuff, ain't it?

This is just my personal commentary;

The Israelite's were constantly complaining and questioning everything, yet GOD always demonstrated His favor on them. Moses was told to speak about the rock .... not yell at it or strike it. I think Moses chose to demonstrate HIS anger towards the people as though he was in-sync with GOD's feelings, which is what got him in trouble.

If you'll recall, Moses had anger issues all his life and HE was the one that was angry at the people for their grumbling, .... there is no record of GOD being angry. So, Moses took it upon himself to act as though he was speaking for GOD by chastising them and then following that up with the physical demonstration of anger by striking the rock. It's true that Moses didn't do as he was told, but I think it was his misrepresentation of GOD that limited his role as their leader.
Very interesting indeed, my understanding of that passage is similar...Moses made a serious mistake. Moses not only was in a highly privileged position but also was under very heavy responsibility to God as leader and mediator for the nation. Because of a water shortage the people began to quarrel with Moses, putting the blame on him for leading them up out of Egypt into the barren wilderness. Moses had put up with the perverseness and insubordination of the Israelites, sharing their hardships, and interceding for them when they sinned, but here he momentarily lost his meekness and mildness of temper. Basically because they were frustrated with the isrealites, Moses and Aaron stood before the people as God commanded. But instead of calling attention to God as the Provider, they spoke harshly to the people and directed attention to themselves, Moses saying: “Hear, now, you rebels! Is it from this crag that we shall bring out water for you?” Then Moses struck the rock and God caused water to flow forth, sufficient for the multitude and their flocks. But God was displeased with the conduct of Moses and Aaron. They had failed of their primary responsibility, to magnify God’s name. They “acted undutifully” toward God, and Moses had ‘spoken rashly with his lips.’ Later God said: “Because you did not show faith in me to sanctify me before the eyes of the sons of Israel, therefore you will not bring this congregation into the land that I shall certainly give them.”
 

nontypical

Eight Pointer
But the good news is, Moses kept his faith, and kept leading the Israelites. God allowed him to see the promised land before he died. The most touching part of the story of Moses to me is that God himself buried Moses. How special is that?
 

GSOHunter

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Is hell forever or a finite time before being blasted into nothing? Revelations talks about Satan being cast into a lake of fire and being destroyed. John 3:16 talks about "shall not perish" and "everlasting life"
 

DFisher

Eight Pointer
Is hell forever or a finite time before being blasted into nothing? Revelations talks about Satan being cast into a lake of fire and being destroyed. John 3:16 talks about "shall not perish" and "everlasting life"
Matthew 25:46 (Jesus said) And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
Mark 9:43 (Jesus said) If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Sounds like forever!
 

nontypical

Eight Pointer
Is hell forever or a finite time before being blasted into nothing? Revelations talks about Satan being cast into a lake of fire and being destroyed. John 3:16 talks about "shall not perish" and "everlasting life"
I was taught that the lake of fire is a part of hell. Old testament (before Jesus blood shed) there was a compartment for the saved people and saints (paradise) and a compartment for unsaved (lost). Look at Luke chapter 16: 19-31 about the rich man and lazarus! So then after Jesus was resurrected, all the saved people and the saints were taken by Jesus from the paradise compartment to Heaven. So now when you die, if you are saved you go to heaven, and if not you go to the lost compartment in hell. The unsaved that are in the lost compartment will face God in the Great White Throne Judgement after the Millennium Reign of Christ. During those 1000 years (Millenium) satan will be bound in the lake of fire. After the Millennium satan will be let loose for a little while. After this satan will be cast into the lake of fire permanently.

To get saved you must accept that you are a sinner and ask Jesus to save you and forgive you for your sins, and avoid the lake of fire!
 

41magfan

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Is hell forever or a finite time before being blasted into nothing? Revelations talks about Satan being cast into a lake of fire and being destroyed. John 3:16 talks about "shall not perish" and "everlasting life"
A person's soul is eternal, and where it resides when it is no longer housed in a physical body is eternal, as well. So, your soul (which is made up of your mind, will, emotion and consciousness) will live forever in one of two places.

Like Helium said .... accept Jesus and none of that will be of any concern.
 

red neck richie

Eight Pointer
Had a long conversation about this over the weekend. Interested to see everyone's thoughts.

The entire premise of most religions in Christianity is that Jesus died for all of our sins. Yet it is also taught that humans have an immortal soul. If such is the case, then we are all going to live eternally in one form or another anyway...right? If then our souls are immortal, Jesus would not have had to die in order for us to gain everlasting life (John 3:16). The scriptures indicate that without Jesus' sacrifice, we would not have "everlasting life"...so how does one explain the "everlastingness" of an immortal soul?
I could go so deep into this! First let me say that a soul cannot be destroyed once created weather good or evil otherwise why wouldn't GOD destroy satan. That being said you have two options.
 
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