Buck harvest down in the East

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
It's going to be interesting if the actual kill was down 25% due to weather and the limits.
there should be a bunch of older bucks waiting to be killed this year. :)
A perfect storm for launching a reduced limit. folks didn't hunt as much so a reduced limit was not a big deal perhaps and then immediate increase in older deer one year after the limits go in.
NCWRC gonna be heroes.
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
In the Eastern zones a decrease in harvest as this past season, if used to calculate an average increase, it would 4.7 bucks per 1000 acres over a 7 year period. Still don't think most hunters will ever see a difference.
 

ScottyB

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Too many factors involved to be able to nail it down......but it will definitely increase the age of deer in the areas where people abide by the rules!

Haters gonna hate....Lovers gonna love it
 

chrispowell

Six Pointer
In the Eastern zones a decrease in harvest as this past season, if used to calculate an average increase, it would 4.7 bucks per 1000 acres over a 7 year period. Still don't think most hunters will ever see a difference.
Is your acre-figure just field and forest, or does it include Wal-Mart parking lots?
 

DRS

Old Mossy Horns
Is your acre-figure just field and forest, or does it include Wal-Mart parking lots?
IIRC it is approx 13,000,000 acres in Eastern NC, using the reverse math that the NCWRC used to calculate bucks/square mile. Even if you decrease that to 10,000,000 that would be 6 bucks/1000 acres over a period of 7 years. Don't forget that deer do also live in urban and suburban NC.
 
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oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
In the Eastern zones a decrease in harvest as this past season, if used to calculate an average increase, it would 4.7 bucks per 1000 acres over a 7 year period. Still don't think most hunters will ever see a difference.
go thru that calculation step by step if you have time.
you lost me.
 

Helium

Ten Pointer
Are we sure it’s not the yotes, Bigfoot, or CWD or abc or 123 that’s reduced the herd? Lol

Someone has to say it.. there are no deer or turkeys in NC
 

chrispowell

Six Pointer
IIRC it is approx 13,000,000 acres in Eastern NC, using the reverse math that the NCWRC used to calculate bucks/square mile. Even if you decrease that to 10,000,000 that would be 6 bucks/1000 acres over a period of 7 years. Don't forget that deer do also live in urban and suburban NC.
Kind of reminds me of what Mark Twain said about statistics: "There are lies, damn lies and statistics." I see what you're saying, but it's somewhat misleading. A better metric, in my opinion, would be to run your numbers based on cutover acreage. Then, of course, the ratio would be much higher
 
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ScottyB

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Damnit boys! The limit is 2......the law will be broken by those that broke it when the limit was 4......The change was the right thing for the herd......regardless if the reasons (or the math) don’t work for you......it will get better in places and it will stay the same in some...get worse in others.....but overall the age of the deer will increase in more places than not......I have faith that the majority of us report our kills.....and I also think that the largest crowd that does not report kills or abide by the rules are in the EAST! Just my opinion.......
 

shotgunner

Ten Pointer
Can you please explain why you think the largest crowd of "rule breakers" are in the east? More hunters? More deer?
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
Can you please explain why you think the largest crowd of "rule breakers" are in the east? More hunters? More deer?
With opportunity comes execution.
More deer, more crop destruction in the east. deer are viewed as they should be, giant rats.
No social pressure to not killem all. in fact stakeholders that allow hunting probably want them all gone. Why be stymied by a limit change?

No doubt there are plenty of rule breakers all across our state. But the ease of justification in the east could lead to the assumption there are more "in the east"
 

ScottyB

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
Nccatfisher is right........all the dog hunters adjacent to our club are rogues.............therefore my opinion is driven by that crowd.....I have no doubt there are folks that do it right.....DRS seems to have his pack under control from what I have read in his post......wish he hunted adjacent to us!! All I want is respect ...............
 

shotgunner

Ten Pointer
I get the more hunters and limited cover by game wardens, I can definitely agree with that.

On the way you judge dog hunters I will judge "trophy hunters" the same...........

My experience with trophy clubs around me: they only take the backstraps off of most kills and leave the rest of the deer for the buzzards, more beer cans in their stands "shooting houses" than an at a NASCAR race at Darlington, brag about how late they can hunt with their new scope, shoot animals like bear, squirrels, raccoons and such that are eating their corn just to get rid of them....

Just judging "trophy hunters" on what I have experienced.
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
I get the more hunters and limited cover by game wardens, I can definitely agree with that.

On the way you judge dog hunters I will judge "trophy hunters" the same...........

My experience with trophy clubs around me: they only take the backstraps off of most kills and leave the rest of the deer for the buzzards, more beer cans in their stands "shooting houses" than an at a NASCAR race at Darlington, brag about how late they can hunt with their new scope, shoot animals like bear, squirrels, raccoons and such that are eating their corn just to get rid of them....

Just judging "trophy hunters" on what I have experienced.
I think that relying on our experience is the way we all judge most things.
There is a nice economic term for it. bias.
The tricky part is acknowledging and recognizing our bias.
Most of us fail miserably and just decide our bias is the "truth"
There has never ever been a better group than deer hunters to prove any theory one might have about folks being biased.
 

bwfarms

Six Pointer
I saw a craigslist ad placed by some guy in Saxapahaw. He was looking for someone to take his deer meat. In the ad he boldly stated all he wanted was the deer head and had no use for the meat. That right there is scum.

I trophy hunt, I don't care for dinky racks. I still process every bit of the meat for my family and dogs. Maybe there needs to be a separation of the Trophy Hunting class. Oh wait the guy I mentioned before is not a trophy hunter, just a poacher. In his mind if he can find a person to take the meat it's not wanton waste so therefore he is not a poacher. While I am conflicted that he reached out so the meat is not wasted, in my mind he is still a poacher.

I believe wanton waste is spread statewide and a substantial population shrug it off. I've talked with people who said they have shot multiple deer in a season and couldn't find it. Instead of applying it to their limit they essentially shoot them until they find them without effort.

It's not just an east thing. It's not just a dogger thing. It's a moral issue.

As far as the bias statement. I think the word it is often mistaken for is envy. Bias still plays a role as people justify why their moral compass is the right direction.
 

nccatfisher

Old Mossy Horns
Contributor
I saw a craigslist ad placed by some guy in Saxapahaw. He was looking for someone to take his deer meat. In the ad he boldly stated all he wanted was the deer head and had no use for the meat. That right there is scum.

I trophy hunt, I don't care for dinky racks. I still process every bit of the meat for my family and dogs. Maybe there needs to be a separation of the Trophy Hunting class. Oh wait the guy I mentioned before is not a trophy hunter, just a poacher. In his mind if he can find a person to take the meat it's not wanton waste so therefore he is not a poacher. While I am conflicted that he reached out so the meat is not wasted, in my mind he is still a poacher.

I believe wanton waste is spread statewide and a substantial population shrug it off. I've talked with people who said they have shot multiple deer in a season and couldn't find it. Instead of applying it to their limit they essentially shoot them until they find them without effort.

It's not just an east thing. It's not just a dogger thing. It's a moral issue.

As far as the bias statement. I think the word it is often mistaken for is envy. Bias still plays a role as people justify why their moral compass is the right direction.
I started back deer hunting seriously this year after a pretty long lay off. My hunting during that "lay off" consisted of primarily shooting. I own land where I can go get in a stand and pretty much harvest something. If someone that had limited time to hunt or was unable to hunt asked me for a deer to eat I would go kill them one and take it to them during the season.

Since I started back my hunting is a couple hours from the house and my wife and I seldom cook so we don't use very little meat. I make it a point every day to ask if anyone wants a deer if by chance I would kill one. Usually someone or several does, if not I am not going to even attempt to pull the trigger on one. I am primarily hunting for the chase anyway.
 
Reactions: RJ1

ScottyB

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
I get the more hunters and limited cover by game wardens, I can definitely agree with that.

On the way you judge dog hunters I will judge "trophy hunters" the same...........

My experience with trophy clubs around me: they only take the backstraps off of most kills and leave the rest of the deer for the buzzards, more beer cans in their stands "shooting houses" than an at a NASCAR race at Darlington, brag about how late they can hunt with their new scope, shoot animals like bear, squirrels, raccoons and such that are eating their corn just to get rid of them....

Just judging "trophy hunters" on what I have experienced.
Dang......sure am glad we ain’t a trophy club!! All we want is to be left alone on the property we lease and not have to police the shitheads that lease land close to us........yep just so happens they let their dogs run all over the county........
 

wncdeerhunter

Old Mossy Horns
I saw a craigslist ad placed by some guy in Saxapahaw. He was looking for someone to take his deer meat. In the ad he boldly stated all he wanted was the deer head and had no use for the meat. That right there is scum.

I trophy hunt, I don't care for dinky racks. I still process every bit of the meat for my family and dogs. Maybe there needs to be a separation of the Trophy Hunting class. Oh wait the guy I mentioned before is not a trophy hunter, just a poacher. In his mind if he can find a person to take the meat it's not wanton waste so therefore he is not a poacher. While I am conflicted that he reached out so the meat is not wasted, in my mind he is still a poacher.

I believe wanton waste is spread statewide and a substantial population shrug it off. I've talked with people who said they have shot multiple deer in a season and couldn't find it. Instead of applying it to their limit they essentially shoot them until they find them without effort.

It's not just an east thing. It's not just a dogger thing. It's a moral issue.

As far as the bias statement. I think the word it is often mistaken for is envy. Bias still plays a role as people justify why their moral compass is the right direction.
That’s a pretty slippery slope. Several hunters I know (some on this site) that don’t eat venison - but they give the meat to those who will.

Calling those people a poacher is a bit off.
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
That’s a pretty slippery slope. Several hunters I know (some on this site) that don’t eat venison - but they give the meat to those who will.

Calling those people a poacher is a bit off.
just his bias.
I know folks that really object to does being killed. They think more of a night hunter than they do a doe killer.
Like I said deer hunters are a biased bunch.
 

Redneck Rocker Dude

Old Mossy Horns
The harvest totals are very accurate. If there are as many non-reporting hunters as you think there are, then we would see close to the same harvest totals as last year. The harvest totals for the east compared to last year are night and day. Not only does this prove the 2-buck limit worked, but it also proved the majority of hunters are honest and report their kills.
I got some ocean front property in Arizona that'll be perfect for you pal...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

chrispowell

Six Pointer
I got some ocean front property in Arizona that'll be perfect for you pal...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
The reason harvest totals are very accurate is 2-fold. First, more hunters are ethical and report their harvests than people want to believe. Second is the smart phone. Reporting a kill could not be easier now. A few taps on your smart phone, and it's done - no tickets to worry about, no public embarrassment, etc.
That said - if a hunter has already used 2 buck tags and then the buck of a lifetime steps out. Well then there will likely be a buck that goes untagged. But I maintain that is the exception and not the norm.
 

chrispowell

Six Pointer
One other thing ya'll should consider is increased hunter selectivity with 2 tags. With the old 4-buck limit where I hunt, I absolutely knew that any buck I let walk was just going in someone else's freezer, so I'd take them if I wanted the meat. Now that there is an increased chance of those bucks surviving, I feel much better about letting young bucks walk and concentrating on does.
 

shotgunner

Ten Pointer
I do have a bias. Having worked in the timber industry for 15 years I was in and out of the woods on a daily basis. I worked all over the Piedmont and coastal plain.

Most of the still hunting clubs I had dealings with were the "whiners". Everything is somebody else's fault. These guys killed one nice deer 5 years ago and are still hunting the exact same stands in the exact same manner and it is someone else's fault that 140" deer don't come by every season. They are the ones that say "there ain't enough meat on those ribs and shoulders for me to waste my time on". They are the ones bragging about there new $1500 scope that let them stay in the stand until 6:30.

But I do not judge all still hunters based on these experiences.

I have been in the woods on several occasions with land owners to have them say "I had no idea these guys were doing this to my land". Leaving trash all over, leaving metal spikes and screw in steps in trees when it clearly says in the lease "no metal in trees". Driving on paths and across field where they have been told to only walk.

But I do not judge all still hunters based on these experiences.

I can not tell you the times I would find a stand while cruising the timber or my loggers would find it while cutting the tract. We would bring it out and carry it to the land owner. More times than not the land owner would respond with "that is not my stand, I got all my stands out because I knew y'all were coming. There ain't supposed to be nobody hunting in there." Definitely not left by a dog hunter.

But I do not judge all still hunters based on these experiences.

No, I do not judge any one group by what I have experienced in the past. Because the past has educated me to judge each group on their own merits. When I come upon a club that is new to me, dog or still hunting, I judge them on how they hunt and treat the land. To be honest there are more good clubs than bad, both still hunting and dog hunting.

My bias is with those that judge all based on the actions of a few.
 

chrispowell

Six Pointer
In the eastern county I hunt, button buck harvest was down 43 percent compared to the previous three year average. Doe harvest was down 7 percent compared to past three-year average. Looks to me like hunters were passing up obvious buttons as well as does that could have been buttons.
 

oldest school

Old Mossy Horns
In the eastern county I hunt, button buck harvest was down 43 percent compared to the previous three year average. Doe harvest was down 7 percent compared to past three-year average. Looks to me like hunters were passing up obvious buttons as well as does that could have been buttons.
might have been a poor hatch contributing to the lack of yearlings?
Oh wait that's turkeys.
Chrispowell, check those same numbers on some more counties. I bet the correlation is random or absent versus your home county.
 

chrispowell

Six Pointer
might have been a poor hatch contributing to the lack of yearlings?
Oh wait that's turkeys.
Chrispowell, check those same numbers on some more counties. I bet the correlation is random or absent versus your home county.
I already checked a few others. They're looking pretty consistent to me.
 

ScottyB

Twelve Pointer
Contributor
I do have a bias. Having worked in the timber industry for 15 years I was in and out of the woods on a daily basis. I worked all over the Piedmont and coastal plain.

Most of the still hunting clubs I had dealings with were the "whiners". Everything is somebody else's fault. These guys killed one nice deer 5 years ago and are still hunting the exact same stands in the exact same manner and it is someone else's fault that 140" deer don't come by every season. They are the ones that say "there ain't enough meat on those ribs and shoulders for me to waste my time on". They are the ones bragging about there new $1500 scope that let them stay in the stand until 6:30.

But I do not judge all still hunters based on these experiences.

I have been in the woods on several occasions with land owners to have them say "I had no idea these guys were doing this to my land". Leaving trash all over, leaving metal spikes and screw in steps in trees when it clearly says in the lease "no metal in trees". Driving on paths and across field where they have been told to only walk.

But I do not judge all still hunters based on these experiences.

I can not tell you the times I would find a stand while cruising the timber or my loggers would find it while cutting the tract. We would bring it out and carry it to the land owner. More times than not the land owner would respond with "that is not my stand, I got all my stands out because I knew y'all were coming. There ain't supposed to be nobody hunting in there." Definitely not left by a dog hunter.

But I do not judge all still hunters based on these experiences.

No, I do not judge any one group by what I have experienced in the past. Because the past has educated me to judge each group on their own merits. When I come upon a club that is new to me, dog or still hunting, I judge them on how they hunt and treat the land. To be honest there are more good clubs than bad, both still hunting and dog hunting.

My bias is with those that judge all based on the actions of a few.
I went back and read the entire thread again and no where in the previous comments did ANYONE say that they judged all hunters or clubs because of one experience........so not sure why you are on your soap box looking for a pat on the back. I judge the ones adjacent to me that I can and have previously encountered illegal behaviors with....... I luckily do not have another dog club to deal with, but nowhere did I say I hate all dog hunters.......but good for you for not judging all hunters from one experience......I don't either and from what's in this thread......the only GROUP that is mentioned being disliked are TROPHY HUNTERS...... and we all have known NCcatfisher doesn't like them for a while now......he is entitled to his opinion too........
 
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