Jett
Ten Pointer
Never was even one.Most likely not 35 left now.
Never was even one.Most likely not 35 left now.
I've got no skin in this game at all, but here's my 2 cents on this.
1) The dog that was released there is not a Red Wolf, so there never was a restoration.
2) Even if it was a Red Wolf, it is currently unable to protect its genetic purity against coyotes, and will very soon be diluted into oblivion.
Reason #2 makes this project a total waste of time, energy and funding.
Joe
I've had time to read your post with a little more attention, RedWolfGuy, and there's a couple of things I noted. You obviously are not a landowner and questionably a hunter. As an "undergrad", what's your declared major and what year are you?
I think one of the biggest mistakes they made "Redwolfguy" was not taking into account the current landscape when trying to establish the wolf. Once an animal is extirpated (if it was ever native at all) The habitat/landscape and human population can become radically altered over the years. Nature abhors a vacuum. when one species moves on, a niche is created and another species will quickly move in to establish itself, becomes "native" and deserves to be there . A lot of times, the new animal (coyote) can be harder to get rid of than the other species is to establish. Also in todays modern world, does the species even belong anymore. We are seeing problems with the re-established Elk just beginning to surface. 200 years ago the elk didn't have interstates, silage fields, and cattle fences to contend with and we are just now seeing the tip of the iceberg. As the population grows so will the problems. Imagine if we tried to establish Bison because "they were once here" or tried to restock grizzleys in the great lakes area. If these farmers think Elk can tear up a fence, imagine what a buffalo herd could do
Hello folks. As I see from the top of this page, yall are no strangers to inquiries.
So full disclosure here - I attend NC State and am working on a research project next semester, looking at issues with wolves, including the red wolves here. I followed the issue at arms length a couple of years back(there were an estimated 110 of them at that time, now 35), and, knowing the facts - personally believe the program should be scrapped or rebooted immediately. It is a failure as is.
As it stands, the program has a historied policy of euthanizing what it finds to be 'hybrids' with coyotes. This is compounded in difficulty as hybrids and what are believed to be 'true' red wolves are indistinguishable. Coyotes are here, they cannot be artificially held back, trying to hold them back is a disaster situation, much like the Northern Spotted Owl and the Barred Owl situation out west years back. And, much like the climate, species are dynamic and continually microevolving - these hybrids are red wolves in their own right - and being they are also limited to eastern NC, should be included in a recovery effort. What in your estimation could have, should be done differently, improved upon were the program to either reboot or move elsewhere?
I live in Chatham County. We have coyotes out here that roam our properties. We also have healthy deer populations. Neither I, nor my neighbors that I'm aware of have groaned in hand wringing that we want to trap/kill/SSS any area coyotes. I've seen it claimed at least one of you purchased your property fully knowing it was home to red wolves - with the disdain for the wolves, is there any animal you would be fine with, under the ESA residing or roaming on your land?
When a person reads about red wolves, the phrase "the only wild population in the world" or some variation always appears afterward. With such a hyped...marketed resource like this, literally in your backyard, why not encourage a healthy wolf population and exploit as an ecotourist destination and importing that economy to the area?
Yall don't want the wolves around, but others in the area do or are indifferent. Are there nonlethal measures yall have taken in deterring the wolves from being on your specific properties? - If so what methods and what seems to have the greatest potential?
Again, I'm not with any organization other than being an individual undergrad student working on genuine interest and an preparation for research for spring semester.
Thanks!
I am a landowner, in Chatham County. I do not hunt, I mountain bike. These are identity driving factors that shouldn't really matter on the issues - but I'm not even here to debate - I'm purely here to get yalls insight, having been looking at this for at minimum the age of this thread, up close.
I'm a Design major. I am not a particular year, I'm making career changes.
Correction: Second sentence should read " How many pups identified as hybrids by the researchers were euthanized to achieve the so called "standard" ?
"the animal we find here, hybrid or not, is not one generally found elsewhere. "
Except for Point Defiance Zoo , and various other zoos holding animals descended from a flawed selective breeding program. How many pups were euthanized to achieve the so called "standard" ?
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I've underlined 3 quotes from your original post. (1) These hybrids are probably close to being as much red wolves as what is being called a red wolf with that I can agree. They however are not deserving of being classified as red wolves and being protected under the ESA, but of course in truth the so-called red wolves are not deserving of that protection either. So, here is my proposal to you why not just open the 5 counties to allow the taking of these animals same as coyotes during night or day? They deserve no special protection, but we can never get them totally out of the gene pool now.
(2) I find the second one of your quotes to be elitist snobbery and something I would expect from a UNC undergrad or perhaps just someone who has been in contact with Ron Sutherland at State. It is after all the landowners property, and when he purchased it has nothing to do with property rights, but more importantly you can not make the property owner responsible for the failures of USFWS to follow the law they told the landowners they would live by.
(3) Perhaps you didn't notice but the great revenue generated by red wolf ecotourism has already been tried and failed with a multimillion dollar investment that promised big dollars and couldn't generate enough to keep it open. In other words in eastern NC dialect, "It didn't produce squat."
Thank you for replying, "Take 'em"
1) Ok
2) I'm sorry you find it elitist snobbery. If its a fact, its a fact... It seemed as a buyer beware - a foolish man who built his house on the sand scenario. Its like knowingly buying a home between two frat houses and then complaining about the parties. I've bought 2 properties - while looking I was aware of the situations involving each prospective buy. This particular situation seemed unique to me in that the buyer must have been full aware the land had ESA protected animals on it...and I am curious if this was initially okay or if something changed.
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Actually RWG, most of the landowners who have screamed the loudest, Bought, or inherited their property BEFORE the feds concocted the Redwoof program. And they have every right to be upset, that this ill-conceived program was thrust upon them. The woof was never native to NC in the first place, so property owners such as Jett, have had to contend with a "non-native" invasive species being thrust upon them with federal protection, which has eroded their property rights. Think about that a minute RWG. If YOU bought property that had never had a population of "species X". Why should you be compelled to go along with any "stocking" efforts with the threat of prosecution if you interfered?
Its not that they never were here, there are public records going from John Winthrop in the NE, to John White around eastern NC/VA down to...I cant recall the name talking of black wolves in Florida*...they were here. Bounties were put on them which drove them to extinction.
Whether its a solid species or a more recent (like within 700 yrs) hybrid, that's not a factor in its ability today. You were on point in your last post, there has been a vacuum and with their ability to breed with coyotes, marked this for failure.
You're wrong about the "red wolf" being in ENC. The court records show a bounty for the eastern grey wolf. There's never been record or archeological proof of any other canine predator except the eastern grey. It is now a part of the terrain in the upper NE and has interbred with the eastern coyotes to create the coy wolf.
They prefer to call it culling. Euthanized makes it sound like they murdered the cute little pups.Correction: Second sentence should read " How many pups identified as hybrids by the researchers were euthanized to achieve the so called "standard" ?
Have you guys up there tried anything?
Kinda similar to culling oysters, both methods involve using a hammer to get rid of that which can't be used.They prefer to call it culling. Euthanized makes it sound like they murdered the cute little pups.
ok, I'm going to need a quick vernacular lesson - Is "woof" as yall say here representative only of red wolves or of all wolves?
Mike, from what I've read, I wouldn't argue against the red wolf actually being an eastern wolf type sub species...with this conversation in mind and indisputable evidence wolves were here, were the program to have been eastern wolves, would we be having this conversation?
Its also important to note pretty much everything is hybridized to some degree or another.
Its not that they never were here, there are public records going from John Winthrop in the NE, to John White around eastern NC/VA down to...I cant recall the name talking of black wolves in Florida*...they were here. Bounties were put on them which drove them to extinction.
Whether its a solid species or a more recent (like within 700 yrs) hybrid, that's not a factor in its ability today. You were on point in your last post, there has been a vacuum and with their ability to breed with coyotes, marked this for failure.
Wrong again RWG, Look at the original range map by the Dept of Interior. Neither NC nor SC is "on the map" We know skins were traded all up and down the east coast, just like obsidian arrowheads (also not native). I'm sure there was some type of wolf here at some point, probably some type of eastern gray variety. All we know for sure is that the "woof", forced upon the folks of NC is nothing like the original "pre-Columbian gray wolf hybrid. We also know from the fossil record that camels also existed here, maybe the USFWS should try to re-introduce them as well